What those that servered with Kerry think of him.

[SkydiverRick 0]

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

[airtwardo 7]

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What does "We KNOW where they are" mean to you?

***

Interesting discussion...
Just my .02,
I have a very close friend that was flying U.S.
troops on civilian airliners to and from the
war zone...
FAA rules don't apply...cock pit door open,
walk around anytime, seatbelts an option...
(and EVERYONE is armed!)

My friend had conversations with many
types of personnel during these long flights.

I was told how some SF guys were showing
pictures of 'active' containers of WMD's
they had unearthed in the desert...
including how these agents were being
'repackaged' in rupture proof containment
vessels in preparation for transport...
(What's a N.B.C. Suit? my friend asked me)

This happened some time back...
and I've always wondered why we never
heard anything through any media outlets?!

Dis-information?
A cover up?


I worked for 10 years in Emergency Response
for Hazardous Material Disposal...
And form the photo descriptions and story I was told...
Whatever they were playing with was
serious stuff.

......Also;
I have a neighbor that has to study a month for a
blood test...a Texan for over a decade that told
me Dallas is the state capatial...
Telling me how DUMB "G.W." is...

"You ever sit in the cockpit of a jet fighter?"
I asked...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[Ron 10]

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In Reply To
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Prove to me GWB knew Saddam had gotten rid of all his WMD and invaded anyway.

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That is like proving the sky is blue to a blind man.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

I'll see as soon as you show it John.

You keep saying Bush lied about WMD's but for it to be a lie he needed to KNOW there were none. If he thought there were WMD's...Then guess what? He was wrong, but it not a LIE.

You seem to avoid like hell the fact you have to KNOW it to be untrue and say it anyway for it to be a LIE...Otherwise you were just wrong.

Now Bush might have been wrong about WMD's in Iraq.

But Iraq had them, never showed that they got rid of them (and this is not like a pistol...This it is a big deal to get rid of these things), they SAID they still had them at certain times. And they did play hide the canoli with the UN inspectors. They also ignored 12 years of UN sanctions.

I will not even get into how bad of a guy he was or how many folks he killed, and held in terror.

So the intel might have been wrong...I'll even admit that now. And Bush made a call based off of that intel. Its like a computer Garbage in/Garbage out.

But the cost of doing nothing if he did have them was higher.

He could have used them against us...and remember he had said he hated us and wanted the US to fall.

He could have sold them...And there are plenty of folks that would buy them...Even before Bush was in office.

I still don't think it was a bad choice given what I know...And I'd bet he knows more than me...And he might even know more than you...Unless you have a Defense Department ID and a secret clearance we don't know about...And BTW I DID have a secret clearance and I would not be privy to that kind of intel....So how do you KNOW anything that he knew?

So unless you can prove he lied...Which remember is saying one thing when he KNEW another...you can't say he LIED... You can say he was WRONG all day long and I will not say otherwise..Unless we find something.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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GWB is safely at home in Washington DC. Our troops are engaged in a war...

So you think that the President should be fighting on the front lines of any wars that occur while he is in charge?

Non sequitur. He has no combat experience, he'd just be a liability.

Then why are you bitching about him being "safely at home in D.C."?

Where did I bitch? I just made the observation that he was safe at home, and not fighting as Gravitymaster claimed. You've done all the subsequent bitching.

It is a FACT that GWB is safely at home.

So you just like making comments that don't mean anything.

Wow. Thank you for that tremendous contribution.

Next thing we know, you'll be telling us that 2 + 2 = 4.

[Michele 1]

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Next thing we know, you'll be telling us that 2 + 2 = 4.

Now you've done it, JR. He'll be posting how it is but isn't 4, how it could be 3, maybe 5, but unlikely it'll be 4, just because Bush said it was. And then he'll call Bush a liar for that, too.

Hey, isn't this a thread about Kerry? Mr. "I'm Irish" "no I'm not" "yes I am" "well maybe"? Gift of gab doesn't seem to be an Irish-only trait, after all....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[SkydiverRick 0]

I just made the observation that he was safe at home, and not fighting as Gravitymaster claimed..

[mjosparky 4]

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Not directed to you in particular, but if THIS isn't second guessing Kerry's actions, and
THIS isn't, I'd like to know what constitutes second guessing.

My part of what you refer to as second guessing, was in fact the way things were. No where in that post or any other post did I second guess Kerry's actions in a combat situation. Unless you can establish that you have any first hand knowledge of combat or in how American operations were conducted in Viet Nam maybe you should refrain making personal judgments on places and things you know nothing about. Second guessing constitutes you pretending to know what GWB or any other person was thinking at any given time.
This thread was about Kerry's behavior on his return form Viet Nam. Have you thought about addressing that issue.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

And I'd bet he knows more than me...And he might even know more than you...Unless you have a Defense Department ID and a secret clearance we don't know about...And BTW I DID have a secret clearance and I would not be privy to that kind of intel....So how do you KNOW anything that he knew?

So unless you can prove he lied...Which remember is saying one thing when he KNEW another...you can't say he LIED... You can say he was WRONG all day long and I will not say otherwise..Unless we find something.

I Knew he knew because Rumsfeld himself said:
"We KNOW where they are"

That's what KNOWING means.

As far as the old "I know a secret" routine goes, that lost all credibility with Nixon. Maybe you are too young to remember.

Do me a favor and check out this thread from a year ago.

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=382511#382511

Read the whole thing, and then tell me who got it right and who got it wrong.



And another thing. The White House has admitted that they were told ahead of time by the CIA that the "uranium from Niger" story was bogus, but they went ahead and used it in the 2003 State of the Union address anyway.

And yet another thing. The President used the "Iraq can launch WMDs in 45 minutes" story on 24th Sept 2002, yet the CIA is on record as having debunked that story on Sept 11 2002.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

Im reading John....so far I found this.

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Even in 2001, France sold Iraq $650m-worth of goods, more than any other country, and was the Western country with the largest number of stands at last November's Baghdad Trade Fair.

And this was good.

Quote

Is it the action of a patriot to get your well connected father to obtain a billet for you in the National Guard so you don't have to go to Vietnam, and then not turn up for your duty?

Of course you can't PROVE any of this either.

This was REALLY good:

Quote

Mark Twain had it half right... "Writers are realists who think they're romantics, (Warriors) Soldiers are romantics who think they are realists". I haven't had too much experience with writers who are realists, but I have found that warriors are remarkably "romantic" if that means dedication to ideals of faithfulness to one another and Country.

This is good since you were asked this and still have not produced any facts to back up your claims:

Quote

And to answer your earlier question AGAIN. It is not right for a father to obtain an Air National Guard position for his son. But I would do the same for my son! It is not right for the son not to fulfill his obligation to his unit and get away with it due to political pressure.

Now where are the facts documenting the influence that you have been asked for several times?

Well? Where are they?

I read some good stuff about Kerry being a hypocrite about claiming to care about the environment and the driving a big SUV...That was kind of funny...

Waybe you should just tell me what I was supposed to read? I must have missed it.

I did get the usual Kallend banter about how bad the US is...And there was the one guy that pressed you about your service.

I still see you saying things like this guy lied...But you still didn't prove anything you said.

Just for you Doc...

Lie (n).

A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.

The problem is you have not PROVEN he knew one thing and said another....And like I told Bill....If you can prove it..I will help you impeach him.

Now, do you understand the definition of a LIE? If you do I woudl ask that you stop saying things you can prove....

You see if I take the same definition of lie as you do...Then you are lying every time you say Bush lied.

If he didn't KNOW then he was not lying...If he thought there were WMD's in Iraq...And made a bad choice...Then I would understand if you wanted to call him stupid...I would even accept that from you (You are a professor and all).

But you have yet to prove he lied...At best all you have shown is that he was wrong....That friend is a BIG difference.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Michele 1]

Quote

I read some good stuff about Kerry being a hypocrite about claiming to care about the environment and the driving a big SUV...That was kind of funny...

Seesh, even BillVon thought that was indication of hypocrasy...

LOL...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[kallend 2,106]

The White House has admitted that they were told ahead of time by the CIA that the "uranium from Niger" story was bogus, but they went ahead and used it in the 2003 State of the Union address anyway.

That is clearly a deception.

The President used the "Iraq can launch WMDs in 45 minutes" story on 24th Sept 2002, yet the CIA is on record as having debunked that story on Sept 11 2002.

Another deception. Now, I call these lies. Maybe you have a different name for deceiving the people.

“Maybe I'm missing something here. I mean, we're going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not." GWB 10/11/2000

and then

“"During the campaign, the president did not express, as you put it, disdain for nation-building," Ari Fleischer, mouthpiece for the President, 2/28/03

“If you overspend, it creates a fundamental weakness in the foundation of economic growth. And so I'm working with Congress to make sure they hear the message -- the message of fiscal responsibility.” Bush, 9/16/02

"Our deficit will be small and short-term", GWB January 2002

followed by record budget deficit in Bush’s budget submitted to Congress, January 2004

“We are -- should and must provide the best care for anybody who is willing to put their life in harm's way.” – Bush, 1/17/03.

Followed by (on the same day) the administration announced proposals to CUT health care benefits to veterans. In fact VA spending per patient today is an average of $624 less than it was seven years ago. The administration also proposed levying a $250 charge on all veterans receiving treatment in VA facilities, and to end access for vets suffering from service-related problems who earn more than $26,000 a year.


and then there's

“This is a hospital, but it's also - it's a place full of love. And I was most touched by meeting the parents and the kids and the nurses and the docs, all of whom are working hard to save lives. I want to thank the moms who are here. Thank you very much for you hospitality…There's a lot of talk about budgets right now, and I'm here to talk about the budget. My job as the President is to submit a budget to the Congress and to set priorities, and one of the priorities that we've talked about is making sure the health care systems are funded.” GWB March 2001

followed by

Bush’s first budget, which proposed cutting grants to children’s hospitals by 15% ($34 million). His 2004 budget proposed to cut 30% more.

How much do you need before you see a pattern emerging?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AirCav 0]

I can't verify these but here are Some Interesting quotes by democratic leaders.

>"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

>"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

>"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

>"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

>"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry( D - MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998

>"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

>"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

>"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
>- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001


>"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

>"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

>"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

>"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
>- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

>"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

>"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

>"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

>"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

>"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

>"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

>"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

>SO NOW THESE SAME DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED--THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR UNECESSARILY!

GW685,D3888,C5052,SCS843

[Michele 1]

Here's Snopes' page on it....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Quote

I read some good stuff about Kerry being a hypocrite about claiming to care about the environment and the driving a big SUV...That was kind of funny...

Seesh, even BillVon thought that was indication of hypocrasy...

LOL...

Ciels-
Michele

I think it is hypocrisy too.

And so is this:

www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030117-8.html

“We are -- should and must provide the best care for anybody who is willing to put their life in harm's way.” – Bush, 1/17/03.

On the very same day the administration announced proposals to CUT health care benefits to veterans.

The cuts continue.

www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=news.newsDtl&did=1576

"This deplorable budget will do nothing to alleviate the many thousands of veterans who are waiting six months or more for basic health care appointments with VA. Instead, the budget seeks to drive veterans from the system by realigning funding, charging enrollment fees for access and more than doubling the prescription drug copayment. This is inexcusable, especially when no member of this administration or Congress would wait this long for their health care.

"What the administration is proposing for veterans is a shell game. Veterans are being asked to pay for their own health care to make up for shortages in the budget. We are adamantly opposed to charging veterans an enrollment fee and we are opposed to increasing payments that veterans make for prescriptions and for other health care services, especially when millions of this nation's veterans are already locked out of the system," Banas said. "To ask this nation's veterans to subsidize their health care is outrageous. They have already paid for their health care with their sweat and with their blood."


Of course, the VFW is an organization of liberals so you can't believe their propaganda.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AirCav 0]

Thanks for the verification.

BTW, I 'm thinking of starting a new organization...

"Vietnam Veterans Against Kerry"...anyone want to

become a charter member?

GW685,D3888,C5052,SCS843

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Thanks for the verification.

BTW, I 'm thinking of starting a new organization...

"Vietnam Veterans Against Kerry"...anyone want to

become a charter member?

Did you read the whole thing?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[b1jercat 0]

I know at least one vietnam veteran from my home state that served with Kerry and is now campaining for him that won't join your organization.

But you might try that guy that wrote the bullshit letter at the start of this thread or maybe the asshat that posted it.

blue skies

jerry

[AirCav 0]

Thanks for the tip! I'll contact them.

They can be VNVAK #2 & #3

GW685,D3888,C5052,SCS843

[skybytch 273]

Quote

maybe the asshat that posted it.

Rule #1.

And a lock.