I'm sick of this. Do you want gay people to be supported in monogamy or not?

[The111 1]

I have a feeling I will get flamed for this, but...

I'm not trying to turn this argument to the morality of homosexuality, or to bring up the "it's wrong because it's not procreation and therefore not natural" argument which homosexuals hate so much (and I can understand why). But... perhaps the reason married heterosexual couples receive "societal benefits" (legal, economic, etc) is because they generally benefit society by introducing a new human life (overpopulation arguments aside). Granted, I said generally... not all heterosexual couples will produce a child, but the general "American picture" of heterosexual families is mommy, daddy, kids. These kids, besides benefiting society (assuming they are raised half-intelligently) by being those who will carry on our culture and country, also are a burden to their parents. So perhaps the benefits the parents receive are both a reward for their contribution, and an assistance to their burden. A homosexual couple has no way of procreating (again, NOT trying to argue the morality of homosexuality) and therefore will not make the contribution or have the added burden of parenthood. Just an idea...

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"Gay marriage" would move towards family-oriented lifestyles.

Again, not gay-bashing, but the word family generally carries the context of continuity through generations. I.e, grand-parents, parents, kids, etc. Generation to generation. A couple in a "gay marriage" could never have such a lifestyle.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Remster 30]

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A couple in a "gay marriage" could never have such a lifestyle.

Ever heard of adoption?

By the way, Narci, you should have made the poll multi choice... some of us straight people actualy beleive you gay folks have the right to lead a monogamous or promiscious lifestyle at your choice...

Remster

[Amazon 7]

EXCEPT.. many gay and lesbian couples DO have children either thru adoption or thru artificial means or surrogates.. etc.

I would think they bear just as great a burden.

ALSO.. MOST American families are NOT Daddy Mommie and children.. single parenthood is far too common thru divorce or thru parents who were capable biologically of having children but incapable of taking responsibility for them.


Jeanne

[The111 1]

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A couple in a "gay marriage" could never have such a lifestyle.

Ever heard of adoption?

I will elaborate. A couple in a "gay marriage" could never create and maintain a family across generations without depending on heterosexual couples to create babies for them.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 1]

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EXCEPT.. many gay and lesbian couples DO have children either thru adoption or thru artificial means or surrogates.. etc.

I would think they bear just as great a burden.

Good point. But they're still not making the contribution of the child. And yes I understand they can make the contribution of raising the child in a safe, healthy home, but they can't make the biological contribution of the birth. And why am I focusing on the biological necessity of birth?

While a gay couple could, in theory, raise a happy healthy child that they adopted from another family who fucked up and couldn't care for that child, they're depending on someone else's fuckup to get that child. A well functioning society (which ours obviously isn't) should not depend on fuckups to promote its function.

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ALSO.. MOST American families are NOT Daddy Mommie and children.. single parenthood is far too common thru divorce or thru parents who were capable biologically of having children but incapable of taking responsibility for them.

That's a tragedy, truly. But it's honestly irrelevant. Gay couples may be able to save children from fucked up homes by giving them a better one, but their ability to raise a child depends on someone else's fuckup. Like I said above, a healthy society should not rely on fuckups to function. Without these fuckups, the gay marriages would not be able raise children and create a "family tree."

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[FliegendeWolf 0]

I liked what John Stewart had to say about this:

So people are talking a lot about legalising gay marriage, and I'm a little worried. Are they going to force me to marry a gay man? I really wouldn't like that, and I don't think my wife would, either, because why would people be getting so upset over the whole thing unless they were being forced to marry gay?

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[PhillyKev 0]

Where's the I could care less option. And by I could care less, I mean let you do whatever you want.

[goose491 0]

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If heterosexuals have to suffer through being married, it's only fair that homosexuals should too.

Bwahaahaaaa! That killed me mama!

My $0.02: Though I support the idea that all should have the same rights, I also stand fast to the idea that a marriage is between a man and a woman... a man and a woman... a man and a woman. So needless to say, I am anti-same-sex-marriage.

I don't know what it's like exactly in the states, but here in Canada, common-law marriages have every same benefit as any other marriage... and same-sex partners can be common-law so it's a moot point. The gays in Ontario are fighting for the right to be officially married which brings me back to "a marriage is between a man and a woman, a man and a woman... a man and a woman!" hehe.

Don't really know if this is what you were getting at... monogamy? Hmmm, straight up, if your in a serious relationship, you should be faithful.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[AggieDave 6]

Your basic views on adoption are, by themselves, quite offensive. Adoption gives families the chance to give love and care to someone who may not have had that otherwise. That also gives couples who are unable to concieve the chance to raise a family.

All in all, the concept of adoption as a whole is a good idea and has provided a better life for many people. The way you stated things it almost sounds like you're implying that the birth mother doesn't feel anything and goes on with life. That is the farthest thing from the truth. Ask a mother who gave a child up for adoption. Ask her how many times a day she thinks of that child, worries about that child, hopes for that child...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[turtlespeed 221]

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Where's the I could care less option. And by I could care less, I mean let you do whatever you want.

And where is the "this is so old, lets move on" answer?
The more you worry about, the longer it's going to be an issue...

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Faber 0]

only rule i has against gays are.. dont fuck me i like girls.

besides that i see no different if you love a boy or girl.aslong as you feel good about it,and your partner loves you too.

i really cant see what the problem should be,but i know its there

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[The111 1]

I apologize if I offended you, but I made my point from a purely logical stance. I'm sure there are many emotions involved on many different sides in an adoption (I have an adopted brother who I love very much) but from a logical POV, this is my opinion:

Any couple that biologically produces a child which they are unable to physically, emotionally, or financially care for, has fucked up (to put it very bluntly, maybe offensively). Unfortunately, their child can suffer the results of their fuckup. Fortunately, adoption saves some of these children and defers them to a better future.

Birth does not happen by accident (yes, I am aware of rape, but I'm making a generalization which covers most cases). What is offensive to me, are the vast amount of couples which irresponsibly give birth to children they can't care for. That is a HUGE mistake. I'll say they've fucked up 100 times over, no matter how much it offends them. Adoption is a great thing, and I don't think my views on that can be considered offensive (though my refusal to sugar-coat the reason for adoption may be offensive to some). As I said already, I love my adopted brother, and I will say without hesitation that our family has provided him a better life than his mother (who fucked up) could have.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Vallerina 2]

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What is offensive to me, are the vast amount of couples which irresponsibly give birth to children they can't care for. That is a HUGE mistake

I agree. I met a girl in second grade that I stayed pretty good friends with through high school. She was an orphan. No, she did not have parents that loved her enough to give her up for adoption. They pretty much abandoned her. She got bounced around a bit, and she was fortunate to find a home that would take her in permanently. It saddens me to think of other orphans and kids who don't have as much luck and never find a permanent and stable home becuase someone's sexual preference is preventing that.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[livendive 8]

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My $0.02: Though I support the idea that all should have the same rights, I also stand fast to the idea that a marriage is between a man and a woman... a man and a woman... a man and a woman. So needless to say, I am anti-same-sex-marriage.

I don't know what it's like exactly in the states, but here in Canada, common-law marriages have every same benefit as any other marriage... and same-sex partners can be common-law so it's a moot point. The gays in Ontario are fighting for the right to be officially married which brings me back to "a marriage is between a man and a woman, a man and a woman... a man and a woman!" hehe.

For starters, imagine two older lifelong couples in the US, one straight, the other gay, all surviving on pensions and social security benefits. Now imagine one member of each couple dies, the straight surviving spouse will subsequently receive social security benefits to help them deal with the financial loss of the death, while the gay surviving partner will have to take the financial hit in addition to the emotional hit. I think that social security benefits ought to be distributed equally, regardless of a lover's gender.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Remster 30]

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common-law marriages have every same benefit as any other marriage...

Not true in all of Canada. With respect of Income Taxation, yes. But in some Provinces, and with some private pensions and benefits, commun law partnerships are not viewed in the same light as married couples.

Remster

[The111 1]

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For starters, imagine two older lifelong couples in the US, one straight, the other gay, all surviving on pensions and social security benefits. Now imagine one member of each couple dies, the straight surviving spouse will subsequently receive social security benefits to help them deal with the financial loss of the death, while the gay surviving partner will have to take the financial hit in addition to the emotional hit. I think that social security benefits ought to be distributed equally, regardless of a lover's gender.

I think social security, pension, etc is bullshit in a "capitalistic" country anyway... but that's WAY off-topic for this post.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Vallerina 2]

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common-law marriages have every same benefit as any other marriage...

Ooh! Thanks for quoting that, Remi! I missed that.

That statement is completely untrue! This girl Jenny had a common law marriage in Indiana. They moved to Ohio so that he could get a better job (although, she had no job, so she went back to school.) After being there for a year or so, he told her to pack up and move out of his house. Any kind of financial support that a divorce would've granted her is gone. She did have a great job in IN and helped to buy that house. Unfortunately, I think she may have been unwise in having most stuff in his name.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

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[Deuce 1]

You kill me Narci. You crusade against gay stereotypes by stereotyping christians.

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does everyone agree with the Christians that gay people should get it on all day long?

Well, gee, fella, since you have already divined what I think, why the poll?

[goose491 0]

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Your basic views on adoption are, by themselves, quite offensive. Adoption gives families the chance to give love and care to someone who may not have had that otherwise. That also gives couples who are unable to concieve the chance to raise a family.

All in all, the concept of adoption as a whole is a good idea and has provided a better life for many people. The way you stated things it almost sounds like you're implying that the birth mother doesn't feel anything and goes on with life. That is the farthest thing from the truth. Ask a mother who gave a child up for adoption. Ask her how many times a day she thinks of that child, worries about that child, hopes for that child...

Aggie I don't think he's knocking the concept of adoption... These children have no life ahead of them until someone else, whos looking to provide them one, steps in and that's great for all parties involved... But what he is saying holds some validity and that's that a gay couple may be able to raise a child... but they would not be able to in a perfect world (perfect world being one where every parent is willing and able to raise their own children)

Well, I suppose they still could go the in-vitro route, or serrogate (sp?) mother route but same thing applies, it puts a kink in the lineage doesn't it? In the family tree?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[whocares 0]

Is it ok for a man to wack off with a handful of thumb tacks?

Or should a man just use broken glass when wanking off?

[goose491 0]

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common-law marriages have every same benefit as any other marriage...

Ooh! Thanks for quoting that, Remi! I missed that.

That statement is completely untrue! This girl Jenny had a common law marriage in Indiana.

hehehe, read where the quote came from... It ended with "In Canada."

There are subtle differences yes, but for the most part, here in Canada, a common-law marriage is treated pretty much the same as a real one.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

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[Vallerina 2]

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hehehe, read where the quote came from...

Oops!!! One day, I will read an entire post before replying, and one day, I will realize that not everything is about the US!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Remster 30]

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hehehe, read where the quote came from... It ended with "In Canada."

There are subtle differences yes, but for the most part, here in Canada, a common-law marriage is treated pretty much the same as a real one.

And again, my reply was with regards to Canada too....

Remster

[The111 1]

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Aggie I don't think he's knocking the concept of adoption... These children have no life ahead of them until someone else, whos looking to provide them one, steps in and that's great for all parties involved... But what he is saying holds some validity and that's that a gay couple may be able to raise a child... but they would not be able to in a perfect world (perfect world being one where every parent is willing and able to raise their own children)

Exactly. In short, a gay couple has no way to prevent human extinction. To extend the lifespan of the human race. I apologize if this comment offends anyone, but that's a very basic analysis of the situation, and how a homosexual couple differs from a heterosexual one.

I think any two consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want... I think the idea of a legally mandated marriage for any couple is kind of dumb in the first place, and I've already said that if our country was truly capitalistic then NO couples would receive any benefits simply because they are married. The government has WAY too much of a role in our lives. The government’s only job is to fulfill its proper and legitimate functions - protecting individual rights and maximizing individual freedom. That last line was plagiarized from an Objectivist webpage, but it's how I feel. The government should not have a hand in our pockets in a free market economy.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[narcimund 0]

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You kill me Narci. You crusade against gay stereotypes by stereotyping christians.

Duece, you're absolutely right. I was hypocritical and unfair. In my lame defense, I was sufficiently drunk when I posted this poll that I let my deepseated bigotries get the better of me.

In truth I don't believe all Christians are one thing or another. Christianity is so often used by the other side of the debate that it's hard to keep the two straight. But it's only a portion of the Christians who are making the fuss.

Please accept my apology.

--

Meunkel, I hope you'll also accept my apology. You too are a perfect gentleman and it was your innocent post about Dean that triggered my thinking on this poll. I shouldn't have associated you personally with what you were writing about. Again, there was a lot of wine with dinner last night and I hope you can forgive me.

First Class Citizen Twice Over