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nbblood

Patriotism

By nbblood, in The Bonfire

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kallend    2,027

kallend
Quote

Quote

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If you find a law to be unjust, you have a moral obligation to break that law and suffer the consequences.
-Henry David Theoreau



If Thoreau actually said that, I'm sorry but I disagree.



So you think that men like Martin Luther King and Ghandi were wrong to defy unjust, discriminatory, laws?

Escaped slaves were law-breakers.
Martin Luther King was a law-breaker.
Mahatma Ghandi was a law-breaker.
Rosa Parks was a law-breaker.
Henry David Thoreau was a law-breaker.

The way unjust laws are overturned is when enough brave people dare to break those unjust laws. I'm glad that people like this chose to break the law.

Ghandi Speaks: (quote)

I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908 [by an Indian extremist opposed
to Gandhi's agreement with Smuts], whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defend me, I told him it was his duty to defend me even by using violence.

Hence it was that I took part in the Boer War, the so-called Zulu Rebellion and [World War I]. Hence also do I advocate training in arms for those who believe in the method of violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honor than that she should in a cowardly manner become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor.

But I believe non-violence is infinitely superior to violence, forgiveness is more manly than punishment. ...But... forgiveness only when there is the power to punish... A mouse hardly forgives a cat when it allows itself to be torn to pieces by her. I therefore appreciate the sentiment of those who cry out for the condign punishment of General Dyer (responsible for massacre at Jallianwala Bagh April 13,1919) and his ilk. They would tear him to pieces if they could. But I do not believe India to be a helpless creature. Only, I want to use India's and my strength for a better purpose.

...Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.... We in India may in a moment realize that one hundred thousand Englishmen need not frighten three hundred million human beings. A definite forgiveness would, therefore, mean a definite recognition of our strength.... It matters little to me that for the moment I do not drive my point home. We feel too downtrodden not to be angry and revengeful. But I must not refrain from saying that India can gain more by waiving the right of punishment. We have better work to do, a better mission to deliver to the world.

Mohandas K. Gandhi, Young India, August 11, 1920 from Fischer, Louis ed.,The Essential Gandhi, 1962. pp. 156-57.



You could try a little personal intregrity here and quote my entire statement, which started:

"I find discrimination against gays to be unjust, but I feel no moral obligation whatever to try to marry another man."


No, do YOU, John Rich, feel a moral obligation to enter a gay marriage to protest an unjust law forbidding gay marriages? I don't.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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WeakMindedFool    0

WeakMindedFool
Do you believe the mayor of SF is correct in ignoring state laws against marrying gays?




Absolutely! The only way for the gay community to effect change is to defy unjust laws. (See Stonewall Riots and Gay Pride Day, riots in defiance of morals laws in NYC) It was the ONLY way that community was going change things for themselves.
I find it ironic that the conservative agenda includes the idea that less government control is good but at the same wishes the federal government to enforce it's morality.

Note that my complaint is with a limited minority segment of the population that happens to be the loudest right now...

What do I love about America?

I love the way Americans argue about everything and we beat our ideas against each other untill most of us come to a consesus!
I love our strength, which is due more to our divesity then some bullshit idealize "American Family Values" that frankly never existied outside of the Cleavers.
I love the fact that we confuse the hell out of everybody else! It seems that from the outside all this noise leads the foolish to believe we are fractured as a people. We will argue before durring and after at the meanings, causes and effects of an event like 9/11 but we will come blow you up if you fuck with us.
I love that we constanly try to reinvent ourselves as thigs change around us. One thing we do better then other coutries is Evolve, despite the voices of intolerence and self seving morality.


Oh yeah...BTW Ted Nuggent is a Moron and a hater! I like guns and shit that blows up too. I don't need an Idiot who appeals to my basest impulses to speak for me.
Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
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skydyvr    0

skydyvr
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Do you believe the mayor of SF is correct in ignoring state laws against marrying gays?



I believe he is correct in obeying the state's mandate against discrimination based on sexual orientation.



Then we should work the system to change the laws that oppose the mandate, right?

Defying laws we don't agree with could lead to a nasty phenomenon called anarchy. :S


. . =(_8^(1)

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skydyvr    0

skydyvr
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Note that my complaint is with a limited minority segment of the population that happens to be the loudest right now...



Who are you talking about?



He is obviously referring to all the newly pseudo-wedded gays in San Francisco. They are the loudest right now.


. . =(_8^(1)

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