Outsourcing - who's been affected?

[PhillyKev 0]

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Then I chose the wrong field. There are no guarantees.

And what if your field is working in a factory because you're, well, not that bright, don't have an education, and grew up in a rural town that you've never set foot out of because your dad and your dad's dad, and all your relatives, and friends relatives worked at that factory for the past 80 years.

[billvon 3,070]

>Where? That is my point. What type of engineer can compete with a wage of $15K?

One with irreplaceable (or hard to replace) skills. People get jobs for their skills, not for showing up 40 hours a week. Anyone can do that.

> The wages of textile workers haven't come up in Thailand, have they?

Between 1973 and 1982 minimum wage rose between 50 and 100% in Thailand. From 1990-1994 it went up an average of 5% a year, then flattened out for a while. It went down one year (1997.) All in all, minimum wage has gone up considerably since 1973.

[billvon 3,070]

>And what if your field is working in a factory because you're, well, not that bright . . .

Then you lose. In a capitalist society, someone with no marketable skills doesn't make much money. Same if you don't want to work, or you have no education, or your family will not allow you to work anywhere else.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Then you lose. In a capitalist society, someone with no marketable skills doesn't make much money. Same if you don't want to work, or you have no education, or your family will not allow you to work anywhere else.

Thus the reason unions exist. For all those that say they have no purpose anymore...please think again. Pure capitalism, where nothing matters except profit and no thought to society or people is not a very noble idea, and NOT what this country was supposed to be about.

It's true what they say, though. Everyone talks about Jefferson and what a great country he helped to form. Jefferson's America does not exist, we're living in what Hamilton envisioned.

[billvon 3,070]

>Thus the reason unions exist. For all those that say they have no
> purpose anymore...please think again. Pure capitalism, where
> nothing matters except profit and no thought to society or people is
> not a very noble idea, and NOT what this country was supposed to
> be about.

I agree that there's nothing noble about capitalism. It's a system that works to regulate the money supply, and to apportion scarce resources. About the best thing you can say about it is that it works better than its opposite, communism. It is not inherently fair or unfair. Often the government steps in to make it more fair through minimum wages, economic penalties for 'crimes' (like pollution credits) or taxes on things undesireable for society at large (like cigarettes.) Take this to an extreme and you have socialism. We have sort of a mix right now; few people starve or die for lack of care in the US, even those who do not work.

Unions, I think, are useful to solve the problem of companies that coerce their workers. They came about when company towns were the norm, and people were literally held hostage by company policies, the company store, the local businesses etc. Nowadays that's not as true any more; a better remedy if you don't like your job is to quit. If everyone does so, then the companies that treat their employees poorly go out of business. It does little good to get everyone in a union, go on strike against a company that treats people poorly, and put the company out of business that way; in the end, more people are out of work for longer.

[kallend 2,106]

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Then you lose. In a capitalist society, someone with no marketable skills doesn't make much money. Same if you don't want to work, or you have no education, or your family will not allow you to work anywhere else.

Thus the reason unions exist. For all those that say they have no purpose anymore...please think again. Pure capitalism, where nothing matters except profit and no thought to society or people is not a very noble idea, and NOT what this country was supposed to be about.

It's true what they say, though. Everyone talks about Jefferson and what a great country he helped to form. Jefferson's America does not exist, we're living in what Hamilton envisioned.

It's all self-regulating. Once we have 150M unemployed and a handful of CEO's each making $1Billion/yr by employing Sierra Leoneans for $1/day, there will be no-one left in the US to afford their products except the CEOs themselves.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nathaniel 0]

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That's the way it works; when companies pump money into an area, the standard of living goes up and people demand more money. The companies continue to pay it because it's still cheaper than hiring a US employee.

Amen. I work in IT, and I'm facing competitive pressure at the moment.

When people complain about offshoring and the like, they don't often seem to account for the growth that goes along with it. There's massive amounts of infrastructure that's being built out in India and China and name your favorite 3rd world nation to support the growth taking place there... Jobs will be created to maintain it.

Even though it might cause me individually to be out of work for a while, the global economy isn't a zero sum game. It's not a wash when jobs move to other places...it's frequently a net gain on the whole, even if it is a net loss for some.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Lee03 0]

I would have to say yes. Many, many jobs have been sent out of this country due to NAFTA. These are jobs that many, now unemployed, would have been employed in, had they not been sent outside the country. I never was much of a Ross Perot (sp) fan, but he was right about this, back in the 90's when it was signed into being, "the giant sucking sound that you hear, is the sound of U.S. jobs leaving the country!"

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To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities.

--Nevil Shute, Slide Rule

[bobsled92 0]

our DSL support is CANADA & INDIA.
All DSL customers 1st complaint is "I called support 1-800 & he was rude and hung up or I couldn't understand a word he said".
If my Co. could drop all repair service techs they would. Local service requires people and they try to fight the reality that lines go to houses and Businesses also, wires& jacks are inside.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[kallend 2,106]

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our DSL support is CANADA & INDIA.
All DSL customers 1st complaint is "I called support 1-800 & he was rude and hung up or I couldn't understand a word he said".
If my Co. could drop all repair service techs they would. Local service requires people and they try to fight the reality that lines go to houses and Businesses also, wires& jacks are inside.

My wireless network tech support is in Mexico. So far I haven't found one person who could correctly diagnose a problem I had with a network ID feature (they all suggested disabling the feature to get around it). I sure hope they're cheap.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bobsled92 0]

As long as the present powers are in office and over time is deleted by Bush, we face a 2nd depression.
U.S. jobs are are farmed out as importing goods take over and exporting our money goes on we will see the fall of our Nation.
I wish to live in warm climate. When I loss everything and my family is homeless, they won't freeze too.
I fear the future the way citizens of Germany feared their Gov't at the start of WWII.
I feel sorrowful that I brought 3 children into a World of such shame and trechery of a country against it's citizens.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[bodypilot90 0]

nope. No one in my field has been. In fact we have added 2 people in the last 6 months and are working overtime. Also I got a contract on my own for a local company. Might be looking to hire a few truck techs if I get a bid I put of yesterday. Job markets change and you have to change with them.

[happythoughts 0]

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>Where? That is my point. What type of engineer can compete with a wage of $15K?

One with irreplaceable (or hard to replace) skills. People get jobs for their skills, not for showing up 40 hours a week. Anyone can do that.

> The wages of textile workers haven't come up in Thailand, have they?

Between 1973 and 1982 minimum wage rose between 50 and 100% in Thailand.

Great. Instead of 300,000 engineers, there is 10 irreplaceable ones whose current job is training someone else to do their job.

The wages went up in Thailand? It doesn't matter to anyone here because the outsourced jobs never come back.

The selling point of outsourcing is that it will create new jobs with better salaries because the new jobs require these cool, new skills. Nope, there's people in those countries with those skills.

An economy is based on a large number of jobs with a variety of skill levels. Call center outsourcing takes out the entry level. Engineering is the midrange. Soon there will be no people to manage. All the management positions will go there too.

[kallend 2,106]

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>Where? That is my point. What type of engineer can compete with a wage of $15K?

One with irreplaceable (or hard to replace) skills. People get jobs for their skills, not for showing up 40 hours a week. Anyone can do that.

> The wages of textile workers haven't come up in Thailand, have they?

Between 1973 and 1982 minimum wage rose between 50 and 100% in Thailand.

Great. Instead of 300,000 engineers, there is 10 irreplaceable ones whose current job is training someone else to do their job.

The wages went up in Thailand? It doesn't matter to anyone here because the outsourced jobs never come back.

The selling point of outsourcing is that it will create new jobs with better salaries because the new jobs require these cool, new skills. Nope, there's people in those countries with those skills.

An economy is based on a large number of jobs with a variety of skill levels. Call center outsourcing takes out the entry level. Engineering is the midrange. Soon there will be no people to manage. All the management positions will go there too.

The Constitution requires the government to act for the "general welfare".

I think a case can be made that maintaining employment opportunities for Americans constitutes the general welfare of the nation. This may contradict the principles of unrestrained capitalism.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[happythoughts 0]

The car industry is protected by quotas.

In California, when the chip industry was threatened, they yelled they were a "sensitive" and "national security" industry, thus demanded protective import quotas. Chips are just another manufacturing industry that could go overseas in a snap.

It does occur. All politics are local. If it affects a large percentage of a constituency, the politicians take note. If the politicians are getting lobbyist money...

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

CRIKEY! This thread sounds like we need to call several Whaaaaambulances...geez, people, quit crying over reality and DO something about your life. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

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Attitude is everything!

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

Well stated, Nate. Thanks for some non-whining, positive perspective!

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Attitude is everything!

[happythoughts 0]

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When people complain about offshoring and the like, they don't often seem to account for the growth that goes along with it. There's massive amounts of infrastructure that's being built out in India and China and name your favorite 3rd world nation to support the growth taking place there... Jobs will be created to maintain it.

Massive amounts of growth THERE. That is the point.

Jobs will be created to maintain it? Where? Not here.

My son lost his job at AOL because they outsourced the whole group. 150 jobs. No support here at all. No new jobs created. The sandwich shop next door closed up too. No customers.

[happythoughts 0]

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quit crying over reality and DO something about your life.

I did. I got two college degrees and innumerable certifcations. Most recently - Oracle DBA. Unfortunately, companies want to put their databases on servers residing in other countries?

People are doing things, taking classes, educating themselves. The problem is not caused by a lack of optimism.

[LuvToFly 0]

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nope. No one in my field has been. In fact we have added 2 people in the last 6 months and are working overtime. Also I got a contract on my own for a local company. Might be looking to hire a few truck techs if I get a bid I put of yesterday. Job markets change and you have to change with them.

Hey, that's good news for you -

However what you are talking about is the difference between virtual on on-site work.

If you have a vehicle broken down, and it needs to run in the US - of course you need US mechanic/techs to fix - keep running.

But telecommunications, data management, and other forms of infrastructure are not location dependent. With high speed data communication lines one could house their data anywhere on the globe - and still function. That's why this thread was targeted towards the IT industry.

In an industry where invention and innovation go hand and hand, the IT gurus over the years have refined the ability to manage system remotely. There is very little a modern-day admin cannot do remotely - except if it involves hardware issues perhaps. That was innovation. With that innovation, companies decided they could and would reduce costs by outsourcing to - well - wherever it is cheap - to manage the operations.

This actually displayed a lack of innovation on their part. For instance, I have yet to see a company that I have been exposed to at least, change from brick and mortar to a completely remote work force. It can be done, and quite easily. You CAN have very talented american IT people (sorry folks, I have yet to see an outsource individual compare with the person they replaced) working from home in just about every capacity - and meetings can be video conferenced or just phone conferenced.

Having worked in the IT industry a long time now, I have seen nothing, if anything, that could not be accomplished in that way -

This would represent absolutely huge savings. Some of the IT campuses I have worked on cost millions and millions of dollars to operate, power, heat, cool, maintain. But the american company mindset has not embraced this idea at large - instead opting to just send the work offshore. (generalizing here - I know - ) Hard to believe that it takes an MBA to think of that.

BUT

Before anyone starts dissecting my post into little quotes and responding - be reminded first of the original point -

The problem I complained about in starting this is not that we are capitalists - and not that we are a dog-eat-dog business world. That IS the way it is -

My problem with the outsourcing game is that it is being done in the name of "saving the company" and "difficult, but required personnel cuts" WHILE, in too many cases, the most upper eschelons are giving themselves fat bonuses and raises with the money saved - So if anyone responds to this post, please respond on that basis as this is the gripe - that the people going out the door are being lied to as it is not really about savings entirely, after all - but about transferring money from their pockets to the uppers -

That is little rough and generalizing, I know. But this stuff goes on so much in the IT industry that it will make your head spin. Can't speak to other industries.

For those of you saying that IT workers just have to adapt, I have never seen more folks learn more skills than in this industry to add value to what they can offer. But it's not a value proposition anymore. The standards of customer service and other services have dropped in many cases due to a host of factors - quality is no longer job number 1 in many of these industries -

Also, I do believe there is a time coming when engineering jobs at large will be highly outsourced as well. After all, folks from offshore are training in the same universities here in the states. Once that happens - I wonder how many people really will be able to adapt, or will they find, like in IT, that many of them just have to leave the field altogether to continue to work - IF you can find work in that other field.

Just my own .02 cents -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[bodypilot90 0]

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My problem with the outsourcing game is that it is being done in the name of "saving the company" and "difficult, but required personnel cuts" WHILE, in too many cases, the most upper eschelons are giving themselves fat bonuses and raises with the money saved - So if anyone responds to this post, please respond on that basis as this is the gripe - that the people going out the door are being lied to as it is not really about savings entirely, after all - but about transferring money from their pockets to the uppers

The "upper eschelons" are there for the bottom line, period. I wonder how many of you IT people are running around in import cars? I guess now you know how the guy working at the ford plant who lost his job because you wanted a Nissan, feels. I was laid off twice change fields. You adapt, accept change or move. There is a shortage in biomedical repair or nursing, heating and ac. Florida needs all three. year round jumping. All I'm saying is move on.......

[billvon 3,070]

>Great. Instead of 300,000 engineers, there is 10 irreplaceable ones
>whose current job is training someone else to do their job.

If the skills of a US engineer are so lacking that they are easily replaced, then they lose their jobs to someone better. That replacement might be someone in the US, might be someone in India. Surely you do not advocate denying more qualified people jobs because a less qualified person is filling up an office?

>An economy is based on a large number of jobs with a variety of skill
> levels. Call center outsourcing takes out the entry level. Engineering
> is the midrange. Soon there will be no people to manage. All the
> management positions will go there too.

And once that happens, the new (city/state/country) will become an economic powerhouse, and the old one will wither. We took over from Great Britain as a world economic power - someone will take over from us someday. Want to delay that day? Make sure that the US can remain competitive. That means _not_ trying to wring your company for every penny, not going on strike instead of just quitting and choosing a better company, and not passing laws to keep less competent people employed at the expense of more competent people. It means working your butt off, often without extra pay, to make your company successful even compared to a country that has cheap labor.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Want to delay that day? Make sure that the US can remain competitive. That means _not_ trying to wring your company for every penny, not going on strike instead of just quitting and choosing a better company, and not passing laws to keep less competent people employed at the expense of more competent people.

No, it means companies NOT firing long term employees to hire newer ones overseas because they are more recently out of school, NOT reducing employee salaries to increase those of managment, and NOT passing laws to make it easier for US based companies to shit can their work force with no warning and open up shop in a 3rd world country.

[happythoughts 0]

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If the skills of a US engineer are so lacking that they are easily replaced, then they lose their jobs to someone better.

I never said that and it has nothing to do with it.

For the last 8 years, IT has the option of hiring US C++ programmers or Indian ones for $15 less an hour.

Identical skills, 1/6th the salary. The US people have the competitive skills, that is not the issue. I don't know how many times I need to repeat that.

[LuvToFly 0]

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I wonder how many of you IT people are running around in import cars? I guess now you know how the guy working at the ford plant who lost his job because you wanted a Nissan, feels.

Unfortunately, that's really apples and oranges.

Reason being, that there is a strong perception, largely supported by reporting agencies such as consumer reports, that the imports - for a long time now - have been MORE RELIABLE. Repair records have shown this trend for a long time now - (although US repairs rates have been descending). This being the case, you are getting more when you invest in something that works better, is more dependable, and creates less problems.

IT outsourcing in not like that at all. You don't get a better product because you went outsourced off-shore. You don't get less problems, certainly not better reliability, nor better communication with language difficulties.

Oh, and yes, by the way, I drive a Ford -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky