Ron 10 #51 February 10, 2004 5 years and 165 jumps? How much time have you spent at the DZ? And how many DZ's? At the DZ I learned at even drinking was not that common..It was a fine family type DZ in ARK. But we still had drug users...But it was not in the open. But in my travels I have found that that type of DZ is not as common as other DZ's...But then agin I don't usually travel to small DZ's... The simple fact is that when you have Adults that are like we are..That is not what I think Children should be exposed to. And I dare anyone to tell me that Kelly, Charlie...ect are "normal" for their age. That can be good AND bad."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #52 February 10, 2004 Quote5 years and 165 jumps? How much time have you spent at the DZ? And how many DZ's? Actually that's kinda my point. I haven't spent THAT much time on DZs. Either would a kid that hangs out there every once in a while. I've been to 7 DZs in 6 states. Some get pretty wild at night and kids have no business being there any more than at a college party. But, in my experience, they don't get any worse than a college party most of the time. And the partying only starts after dark. You make it sound like when a whuffo walks onto any random DZ, he'll find people shooting up in the open, and walk by people having sex on his way to manifest. Then he'll see two or three people go in while watching the landings. It's just not like that. And actually if you know of DZs where people are having sex out in the open on a regular basis, please submit reviews in the dz.com database! edit: ...and I have 166 jumps now! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #53 February 10, 2004 QuoteActually that's kinda my point. I haven't spent THAT much time on DZs. Either would a kid that hangs out there every once in a while. We were not talking about a kid that comes out with his Dad...This thread started as a video of a kids bounce, then moved into being a thread where kids should not jump....I am not talking about the parents that bring little Johnny out during the day and leave, but about the kids that jump and hang out..... I know of two "kids" that jump, and trust me they are into the night scene. I don't think kids should be at the DZ anymore than as you say a college party... Some folks on here think its ok cause they can watch em.....Yeah, you can watch your kid ALL the time. They will want to fit in...And a kid should not be at an adult party."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #54 February 11, 2004 QuoteI have doubts that a kid can make that kind of choice. Just due to the fact I don't think a kid can REALLY understand the situation. what kind of choice are you talking about? and what situation? later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #55 February 11, 2004 QuoteIf you grow up around it that doesnt magically override the fact that at 13 years old you are still a kid. At 13 you arent physically, mentally, or emotionally mature which IMO are all important factors in your ability to make life and death decisions and appreciate the consequences. how can you judge how mature i was when i was 13? you don't even know me. and like i said for most kids, this does hold true, but you know you can be more open minded, and there are kids out there that are much more mature than thier age. i mean, if you grow up around adults, and all your friends are adults, then you tend not to act like a "kid" because you wont' be put up with for very long. QuoteAnyone that would let their 13 year old jump solo is suffering from severaly questionable judgement so your saying my parents don't know how to make decisions? i dont' think i understand what your saying here. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #56 February 11, 2004 Quotewhat kind of choice are you talking about? and what situation? The choice to skydive...The choice to willing put themselves into a situation that WILL end with them dying if they fail to perform. I don't think a 13 year old can really make that call. I don't think that a 13 year old can really grasp that they could die doing this. They may think they can, but 13 year olds think they should be allowed to drive, and drink. But there are laws that say that 13 year olds don't have the ability to make the types of choices that are needed to participate in those activities...And there are studies that back those up. So I don't think a 13 year old should be allowed to jump anymore than I think a 13 year old should be allowed to Solo a Plane, drive a car, drink alcohol, or smoke. I think while there could be exceptions....they would be rare. and lets not forget that ALL skydivers think they are the exception, and ALL parents think little Johnny is "gifted". God forbid a 13 year old bounces in the US...that WILL make the FAA get involved."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luv2Fall 0 #57 February 11, 2004 QuoteQuotewhat kind of choice are you talking about? and what situation? The choice to skydive...The choice to willing put themselves into a situation that WILL end with them dying if they fail to perform. I don't think a 13 year old can really make that call. I don't think that a 13 year old can really grasp that they could die doing this. They may think they can, but 13 year olds think they should be allowed to drive, and drink. But there are laws that say that 13 year olds don't have the ability to make the types of choices that are needed to participate in those activities...And there are studies that back those up. So I don't think a 13 year old should be allowed to jump anymore than I think a 13 year old should be allowed to Solo a Plane, drive a car, drink alcohol, or smoke. I think while there could be exceptions....they would be rare. and lets not forget that ALL skydivers think they are the exception, and ALL parents think little Johnny is "gifted". God forbid a 13 year old bounces in the US...that WILL make the FAA get involved. I would have to agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydive2 1 #58 February 18, 2004 I was one of those kids who grew on the DZ. I practically lived there most of my life. I gotta say there is good and bad, but from experience, I don't know if I would want my kids growing up on a DZ. As Ron is saying, your exposed to A LOT! By the time I was 8 I'd seen all kinds of drugs, sex, and even death up close. When you grow up on a DZ your around adults, and adult situations 24-7. No matter what the dropzone, you will see a little of everything, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And you grow up quick, you have to, everyone around you is at least twice your age, if you act like a "kid" then no one will put up with you (like Kelly said). I guess its one thing if your Kid is at the DZ one Saturday a month, but when your their 24-7 its a totally different story. I made my first jump at 15, and had over 1,000 jumps (and an AFF rating) before I graduated high school. I'm now only 19, but I feel like I have seen/been exposed too WAY more than your "average" 19 year old. I don't think that many normal 15 years old should jump, but when you grow up around it, its totally different story. Lance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #59 February 18, 2004 QuoteQuotethat 13 year olds shouldn't be alowed to skydive" Especially not if their first jump is a solo freefall from 5 grand..... I wouldn't recommend that for an adult either, come to think of it. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larry 0 #60 February 18, 2004 Quotein the end of the show they said that the main was set up to open automaticly after 30 seconds and they don't know why it didn't open... the parents of the boy made the video available... to show " that 13 year olds shouldn't be alowed to skydive"....... they said the boy had went into "shock" after he jumped and never tried to pull anything... just a side comment… As I have said before don't believe anything you hear in the Real TV narrations! They just makeup whatever the flock they want, sometimes more factual than other times, but more often than not it is bullshit that they think sounds better. It was definitely an unfortunate kid that bounced, a real tragedy, but I wouldn’t believe anything they said about the dive plan or the parents. Sometimes the comments are amazingly and obviously asinine. Believe what you see, ignore them. Not saying it's not a good source for hard to find videos, just saying their commentary sucks.“Now click your heels together 3 times so you can return to Kansas to live in poverty with your teetotaling, dirt farming aunt and uncle!” paraphrased Prof. Farnsworth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #61 February 18, 2004 Quote As Ron is saying, your exposed to A LOT! By the time I was 8 I'd seen all kinds of drugs, sex, and even death up close. When you grow up on a DZ your around adults, and adult situations 24-7. No matter what the dropzone, you will see a little of everything, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And you grow up quick, you have to, everyone around you is at least twice your age, if you act like a "kid" then no one will put up with you (like Kelly said). Just goes to show how generalities always have exceptions... First off, this isn't true at all dropzones. I've only been going to our dropzone for 6 months, but I've never seen anything but alcohol. However...sending your kids to public school? then they are going to see drugs and sex up close. Have much family around? they will probably see death. As for not acting like a kid because they are the only ones down there...our dropzone usually has several kids there (other than just mine). the DZO has his 2 year old there...the hanglider people have kids hanging around...tandems often bring kids... But as for the sex, drugs, and rock and roll....that's part of life and being a kid. I know you're not a parent yet...but being a parent isn't about sheltering the kids from these thing, but rather teaching them how to deal with these things as they are a part of life around us every day. Quote I'm now only 19, but I feel like I have seen/been exposed too WAY more than your "average" 19 year old. Lance Hee hee hee... I'd bet over 90% of 19 year olds feel that way. That's one commonality of teens that kinda shows a teen mentality.."I'm so much more mature than most my age....I've experienced so much more than most my age.." I know I felt like that..and every single friend I had felt like that...and, in fact, there is a 19 year old that hangs out at our dropzone that just said this very thing to me. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,460 #62 February 18, 2004 Quotebut being a parent isn't about sheltering the kids from these thing, but rather teaching them how to deal with these things as they are a part of life around us every day I couldn't agree with you more; but the parent should choose when the child has the equipment to deal with a situation. My son told a classmate at school who offered him pot "no thanks, my mom has me drug tested ." Too funny. To me, 16 is an age that's been picked by the USPA, based in part, probably, on the fact that it's generally when kids can drive alone, and when most states say they can be sentenced as adults. There are kids who are ready early; there are ones who aren't ready at 16. I've been around a variety of DZs in the evening. Generally my son (now 20 and perfectly capable of hanging around a DZ on his own if he were into skydiving) would not have had that much fun as a child, and it wouldn't offer that many opportunities to spend quality time with him. Categorizing things as "inappropriate" or "appropriate" based on pre-set criteria is a useful start. Taking a look at specific situations is judgement. Knowing when you don't really need to take a look at the specific situation is good judgement Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #63 February 18, 2004 QuoteBut as for the sex, drugs, and ....that's part of life and being a kid. I know you're not a parent yet...but being a parent isn't about sheltering the kids from these thing, but rather as they are a part of life around us every day. Whaaaaaat??? Why would any have to be taught how to deal with rock and roll? You ought to tech kids how to rock and stop them listening to souless, talentless corporate crap pop music. I want to see kids playing guitar till their fingers bleed!! Rock on! ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydive2 1 #64 February 18, 2004 Well, 6 months in the sport, and 78 jumps, kinda seems like you need to get alittle more experence before making these judements. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #65 February 18, 2004 QuoteWell, 6 months in the sport, and 78 jumps, kinda seems like you need to get alittle more experence before making these judements. why? Would it be better to have 6 years and 50 jumps...or 3 months and 300 jumps...? How much time do you need to be in the sport before you know the people at your dropzone..or, better yet, before you know about being a parent? I just want to know how long you thing I need to be in the sport and how many jumps you thing I should make before I am able to decide what is and is not an appropriate place for my children.... just curious..since you seen to know better than I do my children and where they should and shouldn't be and what they are and are not exposed to... -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #66 February 18, 2004 QuoteHow much time do you need to be in the sport before you know the people at your dropzone..or, better yet, before you know about being a parent? I just want to know how long you thing I need to be in the sport and how many jumps you thing I should make before I am able to decide what is and is not an appropriate place for my children.... just curious..since you seen to know better than I do my children and where they should and shouldn't be and what they are and are not exposed to... He has a point...while he may not have kids...He does know a bunch more about DZ's than you do. And lets be honest very few parents bring their kids up to use drugs. Very few parents approve of their kids having sex. But kids do use drugs and they do have sex. So I'm agreeing with him....You don't honestly know enough about DZ's yet. Trust me. A DZ is not a good place for a kid. BTW I know your instructors remember??? You are at a very military like DZ. I bet there are folks there you don't want your kids to be around...But with Marc running it it is cleaner than most. I bet I could find drugs on several DZ's in less than one hour. I have been asked to attend "saftey meetings" at several DZ's less than 6 hours after I got there. You may be a great parent...But eveyone thinks they are...And yet still kids do bad things...Why put them into a place that will encourage them to act that way? And Skydive2 WAS a kid on a DZ...So he knows more than you or I about being a kid ona DZ...I'd listen to him."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #67 February 18, 2004 Quote He has a point...while he may not have kids...He does know a bunch more about DZ's than you do. Has he ever been to MY DZ? I never made the generalization that he did..just said that there are exceptions and I believe my DZ to be one. Quote And lets be honest very few parents bring their kids up to use drugs. Very few parents approve of their kids having sex. But kids do use drugs and they do have sex. Whether they are at a DZ, or a friends house, or at school...I agree with you. Quote So I'm agreeing with him....You don't honestly know enough about DZ's yet. I don't know CRAP about "DZ's"... but I do know about mine. Quote Trust me. A DZ is not a good place for a kid. And this is the statement that I have a problem with. First off...it's a generalization and generalizations will always have exceptions. Second off...it's a personal judgement call, and who are you to say that it is or is not a good place for any kid but your own? Trust me...I know what's best for MY kids. Quote BTW I know your instructors remember??? You are at a very military like DZ. I bet there are folks there you don't want your kids to be around...But with Marc running it it is cleaner than most. I don't know what "most" are like...so I can't comment on other DZ's... as for folks there that I don't want my kids to be around...there are folks EVERYWHERE that I don't want my kids to be around. But truthfully...the only thing there I'd change that I've seen..is language. Are they hiding it from me because they know I'm a parent? maybe..and if so, I don't care. *shrug* What they do behind their closed doors is their problem. Quote I bet I could find drugs on several DZ's in less than one hour. I bet there's a good chance you could find drugs at my DZ, too... they are everywhere...not just at DZ's. But like I said, my job isn't to shelter them from the realities of the world, but to teach them how to deal with the realities (and be a good role model for them). Quote You may be a great parent...But eveyone thinks they are...And yet still kids do bad things...Why put them into a place that will encourage them to act that way? I don't think I'm a great parent...in fact, I'd argue that most parents don't feel like great parents. We just do what we feel is best for our kids and know we're going to screw them up and just hope that it's not too too badly. As for putting them into a place that will encourage them to do things I don't want? MUCH MUCH MUCH more influence in public school than a DZ...much more likely to get into trouble in school than with me at a DZ. Quote And Skydive2 WAS a kid on a DZ...So he knows more than you or I about being a kid ona DZ...I'd listen to him. He knows about LIVING on a DZ....and he knows about living on the specific DZ that he lived in...and he knows about having the parents he had. I, too, was a kid..so I know about kids. I am a parent..so I know about parenting. And I jump at our home DZ...so I know about our DZ. I do think that I'm a little more qualified than he is to determine whether I'm harming my children by bringing them with us. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newtothesky21 0 #68 February 18, 2004 I "Grew up" around the sport being as my father has been jumping for like 20 years and was a member of the canadian airborn, and now that I am old enoght I hang out with the guys and have a few beer afterward. but there is way less partying now then tere was before when I was younge my dad had a camp site set up away from everything and at night my mom would stay with me so i magaged to stay away from thast stuff. but now I noticed everyone is very clam and we just sit around the fir and have a few beer at night. and it feels like a famly thing. we go there on the weekends and its liek going to the cottege,or whatever even in teh off season we all have get togethers for christmas and birthdays and the like. So I think that A DZ can be a Fine place for kids, as long as the DZ has the right set up I turned out fine. CK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newtothesky21 0 #69 February 18, 2004 I "grew up" in the sport, my dad as been jumping forever, and stil jumps to this day he used to bring me as a child and I though it was fun u know looking at all the jumpers and stuff, and even as a baby I would go and the other jumpers wheer all real nice. and now that I my self jump I have all the oldr guys my dad jumped with to to help me along and teach me pluse I have the younger guys to hang out with our DZ is farily tame we just have a few beers after dark on occasion we get a littel wobbely but most of the time not. when I was younger like from 2-10 my dad always found away to keep me away from the later stuff my mom usually came with us so she was able to distract me and get me to sleep before all the wild stuff. but now like I sed its very tame. and we just hang out our DZ is pritty much a working DZ though mostly students and stuff so they are always professional. But anyway I grew up in the skydiving Community and I turned out Just fine so I guess its just a matter of the type of DZ you are at. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #70 February 18, 2004 Again you want to argue about something you don't know about... So, Im done here. You think you are right....Fine. Its not my kids. But my kids (If I ever have any...Don't count on it) Will NOT be hanging out at the DZ... But what the hell would I know about DZ's? I have only been to like 50 DZ's over the course of 10 years. You have been to what two over less than a year? Feel free to think that you know more...like I said they are not my kids. again Im done here, I hate to argue with someone that already "knows" it all."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #71 February 18, 2004 Quote You think you are right....Fine. Its not my kids. Yup...I'll agree with you here. Quote But my kids (If I ever have any...Don't count on it) Will NOT be hanging out at the DZ... Which is your job as a parent..to make those decision. If you feel it is better for your children to be left with a babysitter while you go jump, then that's what you should do. or if you feel it's better for your children that you quit jumping, then that's what you should do. Quote But what the hell would I know about DZ's? I have only been to like 50 DZ's over the course of 10 years. You have been to what two over less than a year? Ah... no, dear...you mistake the argument as being one about dropzones. the more appropriate question is what the hell would I know about my children....you've had, what, zero children in your life? And you've spent how much time with my children? I'm not questioning how bad any specific dropzone might be....I'm questioning your (or the 19 year old kids) authority on what MY DZ is like with MY children. Quote again Im done here, I hate to argue with someone that already "knows" it all. I don't know all.. but I do know my children... glad we agree that I am the mother and therefore can do what I feel is best for my children, even if you don't agree and think I'm a horrible mother for doing so. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #72 February 18, 2004 You don't know ANYTHING about skydiving yet. Yet you act like you know it all already.... Yes, you know more about kids than me.. But you know SQUAT about DZ's I am done...I am not going to argue with a "know it all" And you claim to listen, but don't."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #73 February 18, 2004 QuoteWhat part of Im done arguing with you on a topic you only know half of? You don't know ANYTHING about skydiving yet. this thread isn't about skydiving. This thread is about kids and parenting...and you don't know ANYTHING about parenting yet. But that's ok...you're right, and I'm wrong...you know better than I do what is best for my kids ...I'm a horrible mother for keeping my children with me while I skydive... thanks for setting me straight. -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydive2 1 #74 February 18, 2004 QuoteI just want to know how long you thing I need to be in the sport and how many jumps you thing I should make before I am able to decide what is and is not an appropriate place for my children.... just curious..since you seen to know better than I do my children and where they should and shouldn't be and what they are and are not exposed to... Wait a minute, where in my other two posts did I say anything about where your kids should or should not be? All I did was post my view of growing up on a DZ, and in the respect, I'd say I have a lot more experience than you. But I didn't tell you where to take your kids, I posted my view, and you get all upset, telling us all how great your DZ is, and that your kids need to be there. Well, to be honest, I could really care less where your kids are, or what they are doing. I posted my experiences, and you take that as me telling you where you kids should be? Get a life. I think Ron's last post pretty much summed it all up. Lance BTW: I do know Marc very well, and I have no doubt that he runs a good, clean dropzone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #75 February 18, 2004 Quotethis thread isn't about skydiving. Its about kids skydiving. It turned into Kids on a DZ.. I have been a kid...And I have been jumping 10 years. You have kids so you know more about them than me... But you know NOTHING about most DZ's. And very little of the ONE you have jumped at. Keep your head in the sand and think its all good. Im not replying again. In fact Im not EVER going to discuss anything with you again. You think you know it all, so why should I even bother? Im just waisting breath."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
