OK Serious Topic Here: How many of YOU are between the ages of 18 and 26? Are YOU ready to go to WAR?

[SublimeBreeze 0]

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>perhaps you should try to imagine your life with gasoline at 5+ dollars a gallon?

When the alternative is this then I am perfectly willing to pay $5 a gallon. Heck, I'd pay $10 a gallon to prevent a few thousand deaths. How many innocent kids would you be willing to sacrifice for $1 a gallon gas?

There are many arguments one can make for this war; people have to pick their reason du jour since no WMD's were found. Removing a tyrant from power, a tyrant who killed tens of thousands, isn't a bad one. Saying that we want cheap gas - that the nearly ten thousand innocent Iraqis killed were worth it so we can drive big trucks and not pay too much - is the worst one I've heard so far.

Within 5 years we could eliminate our dependency on foreign oil; we simply don't care to do it. And thus there is another reason for us to have these wars. War is the worst thing there is; there is nothing worse than the intentional violent slaughter that is at the heart of war. Sometimes it is needed as a last resort. It is NOT needed because we're too lazy to get away from cheap oil.

I dont even need to speak... i'll just quote you =D

Well put!

Peace

Sean
Sean In Thailand

[Amazon 7]

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Hell, I have tried to get into the ANG as a pilot(as well as the Reserves flying helos), and they're full and have waiting lists

Too bad your dad isnt a Congressman huh.. I hear you don't need no steenkin waiting lists

[Zenister 0]

anyone who thinks the war with Iraq wasnt about American economic stability is deluding themselves...

sure there are better, more humane ways we could go about ensuring our way of life continues, however when has our government ever taken the hard road vs the easy one??

those in power always do what is easiest for them to remain in power. It doesnt make it right, but it certainly happens everyday...


please Bill, American foreign policy allows far more than those 10,000 to die every year because its in our best interest to do so, or simply not to interfere with those who are doing so, so dont pretend those 10k souls matter one bit to those in charge (of either party) I’m also not going to pretend that the improving the Iraqi way of life matters to them at all, other than the benefits it provided to America...

other peoples lives are acceptable trades to maintain our way of life, always have been and given the way our government works (and is elected) always will be...

paraphrased “its not about dying for your country its about making the enemy die for his …” (or more aptly 'for yours')

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Guest]

Indymedia isn't exactly an unbiased source. It's a communist front and makes no effort to hide it.

That being said, there are a couple of reasons why a draft won't be reinstated:

Very, very unpopular with politicians and with the military, and with the public.

Stupid bills get put in the hopper all the time - wake me up when a bill like that goes to the Senate on a supermajority vote, because that's the only way it won't get spiked when it arrives. The bill will most likely die a slow, painful death in a House Armed Services subcommittee......There are lots of ways to ju-jitsu a bill that nobody likes...

Another reason is inequity. As always, the poor, dumb, and powerless will be cannon fodder for the interests of the wealthy, smart, and influential. If it was TRULY egalitarian; e.g., the sons and daughters of the Power Elite would be obligated to do it too, that would be one thing, but they'll always buy out or get medical deferrals, or barring that, pull strings to get soft, cushy assignments (and before anybody mentions Dubya - he was a volunteer, not a draftee, and as such, was entitled to a choice. Besides, I know UPT is no cake-walk; it wasn't when Dubya went through it, and it isn't now. Please consult Chris Schindler for details).

Yes, the raggedy-assed masses (RAMs) are STILL the ones who catch the bullets, but at least they've got a choice.

And as was mentioned elsewhere, volunteers are far superior to conscripts.

So don't have a cow - it's Indymedia reporting it after all. If they had their way, there would be universal conscription just like in the Rodina.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[bch7773 0]

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>perhaps you should try to imagine your life with gasoline at 5+ dollars a gallon?

When the alternative is this then I am perfectly willing to pay $5 a gallon. Heck, I'd pay $10 a gallon to prevent a few thousand deaths. How many innocent kids would you be willing to sacrifice for $1 a gallon gas?

There are many arguments one can make for this war; people have to pick their reason du jour since no WMD's were found. Removing a tyrant from power, a tyrant who killed tens of thousands, isn't a bad one. Saying that we want cheap gas - that the nearly ten thousand innocent Iraqis killed were worth it so we can drive big trucks and not pay too much - is the worst one I've heard so far.

Within 5 years we could eliminate our dependency on foreign oil; we simply don't care to do it. And thus there is another reason for us to have these wars. War is the worst thing there is; there is nothing worse than the intentional violent slaughter that is at the heart of war. Sometimes it is needed as a last resort. It is NOT needed because we're too lazy to get away from cheap oil.

I don't get to say this very often, but I totally agree with you on this one billvon. before the war, we were supposed to fight iraq for a zillion reasons, mainly WMDs. now afterwords, about the only thing we can claim to have done is remove sadam from power, which is a good thing, except for the fact that our allies are more distant, the muslim world hates us even more, and a few thousand people were killed, including 500 americans. oh and according to some people on here, apparently that means we get cheaper gas

MB 3528, RB 1182

[diablopilot 2]

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>And if so, that means that Hitler would rule all of Europe to this day.

Godwin's Rule. Any argument where someone feels they must invoke Hitler to make their case is automatically lost by that person. Sort of like the first person to insult someone's mother in a bar.

Dude. Yo' mama!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[samhussey 0]

I disagree with conscription in general. If there is a demonstrated need for a swelling of the Armed Forces in my country (like an imminent invasion) then it would be enough for the government to just ask for volunteers. A conscript army is also less professional and effective than a standing army where the backbone have been serving for a long time, making a career of it. If called though, I'll go.

[scottbre 0]

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I think every US citizen should have to contribute in some way.

I already contribute in some way it's called approximately 25% of my paycheck.

I'm 25 and if I were somehow still eligible by the time the draft actually got reenstated (which I doubt will happen), and was drafted, then I guess I'd just have to pretend to be gay for a little while.

I rather pretend that I like men, than pretend that I'm ok with contributing to someone's death.

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[diablopilot 2]

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I already contribute in some way it's called approximately 25% of my paycheck.

Yeah, and you sound like you're whining about it.

A manditory civil service could go a long way in reducing that tax. I will also foster a feeling of belonging to one of the greatest nations in the world. People may actualy be able to learn how to hold up their heads and feel proud to call them selves an "American". When people feel good about something they are interested in it. That is something we are sorely lacking as can be seen by voter turn outs.

People want to bitch, but they won't take the effort to go out and Vote.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Douva 0]

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I think every US citizen should have to contribute in some way.

I already contribute in some way it's called approximately 25% of my paycheck.

I'm 25 and if I were somehow still eligible by the time the draft actually got reenstated (which I doubt will happen), and was drafted, then I guess I'd just have to pretend to be gay for a little while.

I rather pretend that I like men, than pretend that I'm ok with contributing to someone's death.

Unfortunately, this was tried pretty frequently during the Vietnam War, and it doesn't work. The draft board is a little smarter than that.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[slug 1]

IMO the draft already exists except it's called the National guard and reserve's. It will be interesting to see what happens to them after this effort at nation building is over. The old farts will be retired and the young ones will think twice about one weekend a month vs 18 month's active duty.

If the Feds tried a real draft I think they would find a lot of ineligable folks due to the "don't ask don't tell policy" Damn 80% of the age group is gay and the high rate of failed U.A.'s.

As far as what a recruiter tells someone. Lets get real they have a quota to meet and without the draft they have a hard sell. Remember the Goldie Hawn movie?

FWIW I took my draft physical at the infamous Whitehall street (Alices resturant) They were nice enough to give us 1SH deferment (1965) for 6 month's so we could finish high school. After 6 month's automatic 1A. The air force and the G.I. Bill was very nice to me.

The reserves and the guard had a 5 yr waiting list .

R.I.P.

[SublimeBreeze 0]

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I think every US citizen should have to contribute in some way.

I already contribute in some way it's called approximately 25% of my paycheck.

That is a great point, damn government! =P

Sean
Sean In Thailand

[Amazon 7]

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The reserves and the guard had a 5 yr waiting list

Hmm not if you had a rich or well conected daddy

[sabr190 0]

Hmmm...........think I'll stay out of this one

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[JohnRich 4]

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So if I understand you correctly, any war in which a single innocent child is accidentally killed, is a war that you think should not have been fought?

And if so, that means that Hitler would rule all of Europe to this day. And that means that the number of Jewish children he killed along the way, would have been even greater.

So now what does this do to your philosophy? Children are killed if you don't fight back, and children are killed if you do fight back!

Failure to fight back against evil, even though some innocents may be accidentally killed in the process, creates an even greater evil.

Do you really feel that this is of Hitler proportion, John? I am not saying we should do nothing when someone attacks, but Iraq did not attack us, a terrorist group did. And, we are not killing a single innocent, we are killing many innocents.

First, I wasn't comparing Hussein to Hitler, so you read something into my message that wasn't there. I was stating a real-world example from history in order to try and get a clarification on your philosophy.

Second, you didn't address my question. Would you like to try again?

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Bombs away... (since that's what the majority here are in favor of, anyhow).

Maybe you should reflect upon why so many people are upset with your view of the military as murderers of children.

[JohnRich 4]

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>And if so, that means that Hitler would rule all of Europe to this day.

Godwin's Rule. Any argument where someone feels they must invoke Hitler to make their case is automatically lost by that person. Sort of like the first person to insult someone's mother in a bar.

Yeah, yeah, and every time that so-called rule is quoted, it doesn't mean crap.

The lady implied that war is unjustified, because innocent people get killed. Therefore, it is instructive to use an example to point out how not fighting a war can cause an even greater number of innocent people to die. And WWII is a good example of that.

I could have chosen numerous other example to make the same point, and then you wouldn't have had this meaningless "Hitler" rebuttal. But the analogy would have been just as valid.

So, if you want to ignore the point I'm making because of someone's cutesy debating rule, that's okay by me. But it's a cheap way to ignore a valid point, so that you don't have to address it.

[JohnRich 4]

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Are you really that niave? You seriosuly have no clue why and what we are doing in Iraq? Where have you been this past year?

Yes, i'm that naive. So, you wanna fill me in by answering the questions?

I would recomend that you start reading some news publications. It seems that you might be lacking in information from such sources.

[JohnRich 4]

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Just one recruiter was honest doesn't mean they all are is all I'm saying

Corollary: Just because one recruiter may have stretched the truth a little, doesn't mean that they are all liars.

And how do you know that your friend is telling you the truth? Have you seen his enlistment papers?

And there's no way to underestimate starting pay by $20,000. No one makes that much to start, much less double that.

[JohnRich 4]

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Since when does wanting to serve mean wanting to fight?

If you join the Armed Forces, you sholdn't be surprised if you're asked to fight in a war. That's what they do. Everyone who joins is aware of that basic fact.

Do you disagree?

[JohnRich 4]

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we know that many innocents have been killed as a result of orders. Maybe those orders were not "kill innocents", but, those orders caused and are causing the death of innocents.

Do you drive a car?

Are you aware that 40,000 people die each year in car accidents, right here in America?

Are you going to give up your car in order to help reduce the possibility of car accidents?

[JohnRich 4]

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I'm not sure of all the details but I can tell you this: She was active duty for 3 years, got out for 2 and I think had her child and then went back into the National Guard Reserves. Her ex was (or is) a Marine and is not paying his child support and she is on food stamps. That is all I know at the moment but I will try to find out more details.

Then she should have a regular day job, with an extra National Guard check to supplement that, from her one weekend per month duty. That doesn't sound like any reason to be on food stamps to me. Unless she just plain chooses not to work a full-time job. And if that's the case, that's not the military's fault - it's hers. She should also pursue the child support payments - I believe the Marines would be happy to deduct that automatically from his paycheck every two weeks.

[billvon 2,989]

>Yeah, yeah, and every time that so-called rule is quoted, it doesn't mean crap.

Uh, John, _none_ of this means crap. It's an argument on the net. Godwin's Law is simply a convenient way to prevent arguments from getting out of hand, to prevent the sort of "arms-race" of "yeah, well he's as bad as X! And you're worse than Y!" that always seems to end up with Hitler.

>So, if you want to ignore the point I'm making because of
>someone's cutesy debating rule, that's okay by me.

And if you can't make your point any other way than bringing up the most evil and hated man in history for his emotional appeal, then it's a pretty weak point.

[JohnRich 4]

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I'm 25 and if I were somehow still eligible by the time the draft actually got reenstated (which I doubt will happen), and was drafted, then I guess I'd just have to pretend to be gay for a little while.

Thank you for your devotion to your country.

I'm glad that not all Americans had your attitude in 1775.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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we know that many innocents have been killed as a result of orders. Maybe those orders were not "kill innocents", but, those orders caused and are causing the death of innocents.

Do you drive a car?

Are you aware that 40,000 people die each year in car accidents, right here in America?

Are you going to give up your car in order to help reduce the possibility of car accidents?

You're not worth arguing with, you don't hear anything other than what you want to hear. You don't care that people are dying because our President wants war. When some terrorist blows up the building you live in because they don't feel our government is run properly, then you can tell me that there is a greater good in this. Until then, forgive me if I seem ignorant & uninformed to you because I don't agree.

Angela.

[JohnRich 4]

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As far as what a recruiter tells someone. Lets get real they have a quota to meet and without the draft they have a hard sell. Remember the Goldie Hawn movie?

You're citing a comedy movie as support for an argument that recruiters routinely lie to enlistees?

Wow! What a wonderful degree of credibility that has!