skreamer 1 #1 February 10, 2004 Most people would probably answer 'yes', this is how South Africa's Minister of Health answered the question : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/924889.stm Incredible, but then again this is the same Health minister who said that antiretrovirals were poison, but that garlic and African sweet potato were a better option. (no surprize when she got proven wrong of course...) And if you think that is incredible, the president of South Africa claims not to know anyone who has died of AIDS : http://www.sundayherald.com/36998 Now compare his attitude to that of Mandela's : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2215747.stm Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read those articles, I hope it gives some insight into South Africa and its biggest challenge. You may now return to your usual programme of Bush/Kerry bashing. Thank you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #2 February 10, 2004 Sigh.... Good luck down there! QuoteBush/Kerry bashing I much prefer smelly-South-Africans-living-in-London bashing Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #3 February 10, 2004 if that's the attitudes of the officials in charge, no wonder there's such a problem! How the heck can you educate people on how to stay HIV free if you won't even admit that HIV is a problem?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dixieskydiver 0 #4 February 10, 2004 I believe almost everything science provides adequate evidence for. I was referred to this site http://www.virusmyth.net/ by someone who I have a tremendous amount of respect for and think is very intelligent. They don't do a really good job of making their arguments concise or backing it up with solid scientific data, but they do quote a lot of people who know that stuff. edit: to fix URL Dixie HISPA #56 Facil Rodriguez "Scientific research has shown that 60% of the time, it works every time." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #5 February 10, 2004 Quoteif that's the attitudes of the officials in charge, no wonder there's such a problem! How the heck can you educate people on how to stay HIV free if you won't even admit that HIV is a problem?? Are you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's initial response to AIDS?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites metalslug 36 #6 February 10, 2004 QuoteAre you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's initial response to AIDS? There is a difference between apathy and ignorance. Which one do you think Reagan was guilty of ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #7 February 10, 2004 Not to remember it, but I am aware of it. He ignored it because it was politically volitile and viewed as a "gay problem." He avoided any mention of it until his second term. AIDS first showed up in 1981, and Reagan never mentioned it publically until 1987. The administration undercut federal efforts to confront AIDS in a meaningful way by refusing to spend the money Congress allocated for AIDS research. In the critical years of 1984 and 1985, according to his White House physician, Reagan thought of AIDS as though "it was measles and it would go away. It took Rock Hudson's death from AIDS in 1985 to prompt Reagan to change his personal views, although members of his administration were still openly hostile to more aggressive government funding of research and public education. Six years after the onset of the epidemic, Reagan finally mentioned the word "AIDS" publicly at the Third International AIDS Conference held in Washington, D.C. Reagan's only concrete proposal at this time was widespread routine testing. It was absolutely the wrong thing to do, and we know that now. Reagan could (and did) play ostrich because the information wasn't out there to begin with. We had no idea what was causing this, and it was assumed it was a "gay thing" because the spread in the US was centered around the gay community. Now, it is well known what causes AIDS, how it is spread, and who can catch it. Reagan was able to sweep it under the rug for a while because people didn't know better. Now, people do know better, and there is absolutely no excuse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiverRick 0 #8 February 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteif that's the attitudes of the officials in charge, no wonder there's such a problem! How the heck can you educate people on how to stay HIV free if you won't even admit that HIV is a problem?? Are you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's initial response to AIDS? So now you're blaming the conservatives for AIDS? never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #9 February 10, 2004 nope. not for the virus itself, but the reagan administration in general for wasting six years of potential AIDS education time. Had the public known six years earlier, who knows how different the world could be now and how many cases could have been prevented. Its common knowledge that Reagan fucked up here. Even most conservatives agree now that when faced with a deadly disease, it doesn't matter who the heck has it to begin with, because its going to spread to everyone else, so nip it in the bud rather than let more and more folks catch it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skreamer 1 #10 February 10, 2004 Nice hijack guys. Over 600 South Africans dying every day from Aids related illness, but I'm glad you people can focus on what is really important - Reagan's reaction in the 80's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 226 #11 February 10, 2004 QuoteNice hijack guys. Over 600 South Africans dying every day from Aids related illness, but I'm glad you people can focus on what is really important - Reagan's reaction in the 80's. I was wondering if this was going to break. Skreamer thanks - I had two family members die of AIDS in the past. Nasty fukn disease. *Sigh* I find it humorous that it is backlashed and blamed on Reagan. I find it humorous, the duality of the political areana. I find it fucking ignorant to BLAME ANYONE. Reagan didn't cause it, saying he did nothing about it, while the same mouth spouts shame on another President because he did act on information is the most two faced cowardly way to define your beliefs as I have ever seen. Using a tactic as blaming the deaths caused by a deadly virus that has the potential for complete devestation to forward you political agenda is barbaric.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites metalslug 36 #12 February 10, 2004 What would you have us do ? Vote out the current government? (yeah, riiiight) ..or have DZ.commers send letters of protest that actualy get read ? There are 7 billion humans on an overpopulated planet and South Africa has a healthy quota of those. Darwinism takes its toll. Please have exact change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skreamer 1 #13 February 10, 2004 QuoteWhat would you have us do ? Vote out the current government? (yeah, riiiight) I am one of us. I am still a South African citizen and will be voting later this year. My post wasn't intended for you to do anything, it was intended to raise some awareness in the rest of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,534 #14 February 10, 2004 Howzabout a Bush/Mbeki smackdown? It looks like some of the folks in the SA government figure that if they restate a problem they can't solve entirely it will be come what they say it is. Unfortunately, some problems can't be solved, and the government's restating it as one that can be doesn't change that. Good luck Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #15 February 10, 2004 what we're saying is that there is a correlation between the two. what's happening in south africa is paralleling what happened here in the 1980s. Government denying that HIV is a problem. What happened in the US in the 80s should not be allowed to happen in South Africa. The public needs to be educated about the causes and effects of HIV, not deceived by a government hiding its head in the sand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scratch 0 #16 February 11, 2004 Oh joy. That circus is permanently at it. God help us all when Madiba passes on. Mbeki must come work with me for a bit. That way he can watch them drop. About 1 in 5 of our workforce is HIV +. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites meatmissile 0 #17 February 11, 2004 QuoteT-M: I would advise you to read the strategic framework. You have to analyse it. It is important for the media to inform the public about the positions of government ... It is time that when you interview people, not on yes or no, but on the tenets of the framework. R: Manto, we have gone as far as we can go. I find your reaction to that question absolutely bizarre and that is my final word on it. God help us all . edit: Note the curtains in the background of the cartoon . -- ZZZzzzz.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Erroll 80 #18 February 11, 2004 Quotewhat we're saying is that there is a correlation between the two. what's happening in south africa is paralleling what happened here in the 1980s. It is not quite the same. In your earlier post you stated that Reagan 'avoided' the subject. Pres Mbeki and his Minister of Health are on the one hand denying that HIV causes Aids and on the other claiming that garlic and potatoes are a cure. Across our border Botswana has the highest per capita incidence of Aids in the world. It is a frightening thought that our President (who is highly educated and intelligent) holds the views that he does! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vleisie 0 #19 February 11, 2004 My wife works at Chris Hani - Baragwanath in Soweto, the infection rate in the burns unit is 30%. Burn injuries occur pretty randomly so it gives a good estimate of the rate for the general population. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Erroll 80 #20 February 11, 2004 Quote Note the curtains in the background of the cartoon . And the key-ring in the door. edit to change funny font Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Pia 0 #21 February 11, 2004 QuoteMy wife works at Chris Hani - Baragwanath in Soweto, the infection rate in the burns unit is 30%. Burn injuries occur pretty randomly so it gives a good estimate of the rate for the general population. This is selfish and I admit it.. but I wouldn't risk my life working there. Sad but true. **Those who refuse to live and learn simply exist** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vleisie 0 #22 February 11, 2004 It's not really that bad and she actually enjoys it! They see things every week that people in private practice will see maybe once a year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Pia 0 #23 February 11, 2004 I'm sure.. I take my hat off to her **Those who refuse to live and learn simply exist** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites meatmissile 0 #24 February 11, 2004 Pia, it seems to be widely held in government circles that poverty causes AIDS. All that remains to be determined now: Is poverty contageous? Maybe it is spread through high personal taxes and increased social spending coupled with rising unemployment and rampant illiteracy . -- ZZZzzzz.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pds 0 #25 February 11, 2004 i would say yes. any cases of aids without hiv?namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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Remster 30 #2 February 10, 2004 Sigh.... Good luck down there! QuoteBush/Kerry bashing I much prefer smelly-South-Africans-living-in-London bashing Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #3 February 10, 2004 if that's the attitudes of the officials in charge, no wonder there's such a problem! How the heck can you educate people on how to stay HIV free if you won't even admit that HIV is a problem?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dixieskydiver 0 #4 February 10, 2004 I believe almost everything science provides adequate evidence for. I was referred to this site http://www.virusmyth.net/ by someone who I have a tremendous amount of respect for and think is very intelligent. They don't do a really good job of making their arguments concise or backing it up with solid scientific data, but they do quote a lot of people who know that stuff. edit: to fix URL Dixie HISPA #56 Facil Rodriguez "Scientific research has shown that 60% of the time, it works every time." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #5 February 10, 2004 Quoteif that's the attitudes of the officials in charge, no wonder there's such a problem! How the heck can you educate people on how to stay HIV free if you won't even admit that HIV is a problem?? Are you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's initial response to AIDS?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 36 #6 February 10, 2004 QuoteAre you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's initial response to AIDS? There is a difference between apathy and ignorance. Which one do you think Reagan was guilty of ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #7 February 10, 2004 Not to remember it, but I am aware of it. He ignored it because it was politically volitile and viewed as a "gay problem." He avoided any mention of it until his second term. AIDS first showed up in 1981, and Reagan never mentioned it publically until 1987. The administration undercut federal efforts to confront AIDS in a meaningful way by refusing to spend the money Congress allocated for AIDS research. In the critical years of 1984 and 1985, according to his White House physician, Reagan thought of AIDS as though "it was measles and it would go away. It took Rock Hudson's death from AIDS in 1985 to prompt Reagan to change his personal views, although members of his administration were still openly hostile to more aggressive government funding of research and public education. Six years after the onset of the epidemic, Reagan finally mentioned the word "AIDS" publicly at the Third International AIDS Conference held in Washington, D.C. Reagan's only concrete proposal at this time was widespread routine testing. It was absolutely the wrong thing to do, and we know that now. Reagan could (and did) play ostrich because the information wasn't out there to begin with. We had no idea what was causing this, and it was assumed it was a "gay thing" because the spread in the US was centered around the gay community. Now, it is well known what causes AIDS, how it is spread, and who can catch it. Reagan was able to sweep it under the rug for a while because people didn't know better. Now, people do know better, and there is absolutely no excuse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #8 February 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteif that's the attitudes of the officials in charge, no wonder there's such a problem! How the heck can you educate people on how to stay HIV free if you won't even admit that HIV is a problem?? Are you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's initial response to AIDS? So now you're blaming the conservatives for AIDS? never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #9 February 10, 2004 nope. not for the virus itself, but the reagan administration in general for wasting six years of potential AIDS education time. Had the public known six years earlier, who knows how different the world could be now and how many cases could have been prevented. Its common knowledge that Reagan fucked up here. Even most conservatives agree now that when faced with a deadly disease, it doesn't matter who the heck has it to begin with, because its going to spread to everyone else, so nip it in the bud rather than let more and more folks catch it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #10 February 10, 2004 Nice hijack guys. Over 600 South Africans dying every day from Aids related illness, but I'm glad you people can focus on what is really important - Reagan's reaction in the 80's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #11 February 10, 2004 QuoteNice hijack guys. Over 600 South Africans dying every day from Aids related illness, but I'm glad you people can focus on what is really important - Reagan's reaction in the 80's. I was wondering if this was going to break. Skreamer thanks - I had two family members die of AIDS in the past. Nasty fukn disease. *Sigh* I find it humorous that it is backlashed and blamed on Reagan. I find it humorous, the duality of the political areana. I find it fucking ignorant to BLAME ANYONE. Reagan didn't cause it, saying he did nothing about it, while the same mouth spouts shame on another President because he did act on information is the most two faced cowardly way to define your beliefs as I have ever seen. Using a tactic as blaming the deaths caused by a deadly virus that has the potential for complete devestation to forward you political agenda is barbaric.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalslug 36 #12 February 10, 2004 What would you have us do ? Vote out the current government? (yeah, riiiight) ..or have DZ.commers send letters of protest that actualy get read ? There are 7 billion humans on an overpopulated planet and South Africa has a healthy quota of those. Darwinism takes its toll. Please have exact change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #13 February 10, 2004 QuoteWhat would you have us do ? Vote out the current government? (yeah, riiiight) I am one of us. I am still a South African citizen and will be voting later this year. My post wasn't intended for you to do anything, it was intended to raise some awareness in the rest of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,534 #14 February 10, 2004 Howzabout a Bush/Mbeki smackdown? It looks like some of the folks in the SA government figure that if they restate a problem they can't solve entirely it will be come what they say it is. Unfortunately, some problems can't be solved, and the government's restating it as one that can be doesn't change that. Good luck Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #15 February 10, 2004 what we're saying is that there is a correlation between the two. what's happening in south africa is paralleling what happened here in the 1980s. Government denying that HIV is a problem. What happened in the US in the 80s should not be allowed to happen in South Africa. The public needs to be educated about the causes and effects of HIV, not deceived by a government hiding its head in the sand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scratch 0 #16 February 11, 2004 Oh joy. That circus is permanently at it. God help us all when Madiba passes on. Mbeki must come work with me for a bit. That way he can watch them drop. About 1 in 5 of our workforce is HIV +. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatmissile 0 #17 February 11, 2004 QuoteT-M: I would advise you to read the strategic framework. You have to analyse it. It is important for the media to inform the public about the positions of government ... It is time that when you interview people, not on yes or no, but on the tenets of the framework. R: Manto, we have gone as far as we can go. I find your reaction to that question absolutely bizarre and that is my final word on it. God help us all . edit: Note the curtains in the background of the cartoon . -- ZZZzzzz.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #18 February 11, 2004 Quotewhat we're saying is that there is a correlation between the two. what's happening in south africa is paralleling what happened here in the 1980s. It is not quite the same. In your earlier post you stated that Reagan 'avoided' the subject. Pres Mbeki and his Minister of Health are on the one hand denying that HIV causes Aids and on the other claiming that garlic and potatoes are a cure. Across our border Botswana has the highest per capita incidence of Aids in the world. It is a frightening thought that our President (who is highly educated and intelligent) holds the views that he does! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vleisie 0 #19 February 11, 2004 My wife works at Chris Hani - Baragwanath in Soweto, the infection rate in the burns unit is 30%. Burn injuries occur pretty randomly so it gives a good estimate of the rate for the general population. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #20 February 11, 2004 Quote Note the curtains in the background of the cartoon . And the key-ring in the door. edit to change funny font Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pia 0 #21 February 11, 2004 QuoteMy wife works at Chris Hani - Baragwanath in Soweto, the infection rate in the burns unit is 30%. Burn injuries occur pretty randomly so it gives a good estimate of the rate for the general population. This is selfish and I admit it.. but I wouldn't risk my life working there. Sad but true. **Those who refuse to live and learn simply exist** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vleisie 0 #22 February 11, 2004 It's not really that bad and she actually enjoys it! They see things every week that people in private practice will see maybe once a year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pia 0 #23 February 11, 2004 I'm sure.. I take my hat off to her **Those who refuse to live and learn simply exist** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatmissile 0 #24 February 11, 2004 Pia, it seems to be widely held in government circles that poverty causes AIDS. All that remains to be determined now: Is poverty contageous? Maybe it is spread through high personal taxes and increased social spending coupled with rising unemployment and rampant illiteracy . -- ZZZzzzz.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #25 February 11, 2004 i would say yes. any cases of aids without hiv?namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
