Australia Bans Argus AAD

[CrazyAl 0]

Right......... So should all Parachute Associations just banned products with out facts until proven otherwise. That would ruin skydiving completely, and we all know it.

Unless there is serious proof of gross negligence most reputable aviation governing associations allow/encourage the manufactures to be present during investigations. In addition they call emergency meetings in the event something may need to be grounded or pulled off line. During these sort of investigations they our known to hire experts from third parties, and have the manufacture present to answer to the product or device in question. Nothing is done based on hearsay, there are way to many legal ramifications from jumping to conclusions, as well as it's just a bad #$%^ing Idea.

Can you imagine being an all Argus DZ right now in OZ? If there are any I feel for them, this is not fair and should not be condoned by any skydivers.

I'm sure Pratt & Whitney would have a huge claim against the FAA if they grounded all P&W turbines on jump ships because of two engine fires in Europe which had less than adequate proof P&W was at fault.

[billvon 2,998]

>Right......... So should all Parachute Associations just banned products
>with out facts until proven otherwise.

Nope. Banning products that will kill people, though, can be a good call.

>Can you imagine being an all Argus DZ right now in OZ? If there are any I
>feel for them, this is not fair and should not be condoned by any skydivers.

I think I'd feel more sorry for them if they lost a friend because their AAD malfunctioned and prevented them from saving their own lives.

[RiggerLee 61]

This has been really fun to read. Where was all this fire and fury a few years ago when it was so fashionable to move cutters from their obveous and natural position to a new location above the pilotchute. Do you reallize how many rigs had to be modified? Whole countries passing laws about it. And there were several deaths sited in that and I think there were more unreported. I think I saw one thoue I didn't recanise it at the time. And now you want to go the other way.

I feel like I'm in an old cartoon. The one where he's on a board or a rock acting like a sesaw. Running from end to end trying to keep the thing from falling. It's comical. And you say the APF jumps to conclusions.

So lets see. You redesigned the rigs to try to correct a rigging error. Then you banned an AAD to try to fix a cutter probblem that might or might not exist. Now you want to ground riggs so that an AAD can be jumped... This is the best entertainment around.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[Bolas 5]

Since making that post, I've been informed that for a cutter "lock" to cause an issue with manually deploying the reserve, the AAD would have needed to already fired.

My initial concern was with the AAD interfering with a normal reserve deployment that occurred prior to the AAD firing.

While the likelihood of a cutter "locking" is extremely limited the chance of the jumper attempting to pull their reserve at a survivable height after is most likely even moreso.

It's simply a matter of non riggers not aware of the possible faiilure mode. Like most I ASS-U-ME-d prior that an AAD cutter had no other possible impact on deployment other than to cut or not cut.

This doesn't mean something has to be done to change things, but possibly more known.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[SethInMI 174]

In the APF report on Argus was a mention of an event in Portugal on 3 Sept 2010 where a rig was discovered with a blank AAD display during a gear check. It was later determined that the AAD had fired, the cutter failed, and the reserve was totaled.

This is the scariest situation, IMHO. Your AAD fires without your knowledge (low opening, pressure fluctuation in the plane, etc), the cutter jams, and then you jump the rest of the day with a totaled reserve. (Or until you check the display)

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[dragon2 2]

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(Or until you check the display)

Which should be BEFORE EVERY JUMP. Your AAD can suddenly show an error, a blank screen, the wrong mode, wrong alti, or be turned off.

If you continue to jump a rig throughout the day after just checking it ONCE, you´re asking for bad stuff to happen to you

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[BrianM 1]

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While the likelihood of a cutter "locking" is extremely limited the chance of the jumper attempting to pull their reserve at a survivable height after is most likely even moreso.

Yep; I posted pretty much the same thing 7 months ago (after the Polish fatality), in response to a poster who said that he'd rather a loved one have no AAD than an Argus, even if they were at firing altitude and had not pulled anything: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3850162#3850162

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[verticalflier 0]

Quote

>Right......... So should all Parachute Associations just banned products
>with out facts until proven otherwise.

Nope. Banning products that will kill people, though, can be a good call.

>Can you imagine being an all Argus DZ right now in OZ? If there are any I
>feel for them, this is not fair and should not be condoned by any skydivers.

I think I'd feel more sorry for them if they lost a friend because their AAD malfunctioned and prevented them from saving their own lives.

That Polish DZ was all, over 30 rigs, Argus dz at the time. They had to switch to a different brand.
Tough for the dz, Argus and very unfortunate for the student.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Quote

(Or until you check the display)

Which should be BEFORE EVERY JUMP. Your AAD can suddenly show an error, a blank screen, the wrong mode, wrong alti, or be turned off.

If you continue to jump a rig throughout the day after just checking it ONCE, you´re asking for bad stuff to happen to you

And here is yet another contradictory thing as the general thinking with an AAD has been "set it and forget it."

Perhaps a simple audible alert could be added to an AAD if it fires. It'd have two purposes:

* To prevent a rig from accidently being used if the AAD has fired the cutter but for some reason the reserve did not deploy.
* Assist in location of a jumper whose AAD has fired. Would be especially useful if they landed in trees or perhaps water or maybe a night jump.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[petejones45 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

(Or until you check the display)

Which should be BEFORE EVERY JUMP. Your AAD can suddenly show an error, a blank screen, the wrong mode, wrong alti, or be turned off.

If you continue to jump a rig throughout the day after just checking it ONCE, you´re asking for bad stuff to happen to you

And here is yet another contradictory thing as the general thinking with an AAD has been "set it and forget it."

Perhaps a simple audible alert could be added to an AAD if it fires. It'd have two purposes:

* To prevent a rig from accidently being used if the AAD has fired the cutter but for some reason the reserve did not deploy.
* Assist in location of a jumper whose AAD has fired. Would be especially useful if they landed in trees or perhaps water or maybe a night jump.

have you ever seen an FXc??? the "set it and forget it"
rule defenitnatly doesn't apply to those things!!!!

Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

[hcsvader 1]

Quote

In the APF report on Argus was a mention of an event in Portugal on 3 Sept 2010 where a rig was discovered with a blank AAD display during a gear check. It was later determined that the AAD had fired, the cutter failed, and the reserve was totaled.

This is the scariest situation, IMHO. Your AAD fires without your knowledge (low opening, pressure fluctuation in the plane, etc), the cutter jams, and then you jump the rest of the day with a totaled reserve. (Or until you check the display)

This incident happened while an airplane was decending after a JM noticed that the screen on the argus had gone blank so he decided to take his student down in the plane.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Bolas 5]

Quote

have you ever seen an FXc??? the "set it and forget it"
rule defenitnatly doesn't apply to those things!!!!

Correction, as the general thinking with most modern AADs has been "set it and forget it."

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[koppel 4]

and the fun is done...


so many months after banning the Argus it is decided that

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It  is  beyond  the  scope  of  the  APF  to  independently  test  equipment  used  in  skydiving  and  relies  on  manufacturers  of  equipment  to   meet  relevant  approved  national  performance  standards  and  that  equipment  manufacturers  approve  the  fitting  of  accessories   such  as  an  AAD  to  their  equipment  ensuring  that  it  does  not  interfere  with  the  equipment  function.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[strop45 0]

Personally I wouldn't use any brand of AAD where a cutter failure could stop me manually opening the reserve, i.e. on my rig the cutter must be below the reserve.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[dragon2 2]

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Personally I wouldn't use any brand of AAD where a cutter failure could stop me manually opening the reserve, i.e. on my rig the cutter must be below the reserve.

That's not a feature of the AAD, that's a feature of your RIG. Ie, get a javelin or vortex.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[skydiverek 63]

Or Wings.

[billvon 2,998]

>That's not a feature of the AAD, that's a feature of your RIG.

Well, it's more a feature of cutter based AAD's. There have been several pin puller AAD's on the market; they would not be susceptible to the same problem.

[Deyan 36]

......Or Quest, Advance Seven.....

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[strop45 0]

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Personally I wouldn't use any brand of AAD where a cutter failure could stop me manually opening the reserve, i.e. on my rig the cutter must be below the reserve.
'-------------------------------------------'

That's not a feature of the AAD, that's a feature of your RIG. Ie, get a javelin or vortex.

my bad , I wouldn't use an AAD/Rig combination where a cutter failure would stop me from opening the reserve manually.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[sdsouthsask 0]

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Or Wings.

No the cutter is below on the wings

[skydiverek 63]

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Or Wings.

No the cutter is below on the wings

This is what I meant. Cutter below the freebag.

[Slurp56 0]

Quote

Quote

Personally I wouldn't use any brand of AAD where a cutter failure could stop me manually opening the reserve, i.e. on my rig the cutter must be below the reserve.
'-------------------------------------------'

That's not a feature of the AAD, that's a feature of your RIG. Ie, get a javelin or vortex.

my bad , I wouldn't use an AAD/Rig combination where a cutter failure would stop me from opening the reserve manually.

While I tend to agree with you, know that every design is a compromise. Having the AAD cutter at the base of the loop facilitates the scenario of a total caused by binding of excess loop length.

To me, it's somewhat 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. If you actually got low enough to have an AAD fire, how much longer were you going to wait before pulling your reserve? And if you are in a situation where an AAD fire is a legitimate save, then probability wise, it's likely best to have the cutter nearest the pin.

________________________________________
I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw.

[firemedic 7]

..........and if your on a budget, a Dolphin.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

To me, it's somewhat 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. If you actually got low enough to have an AAD fire, how much longer were you going to wait before pulling your reserve? And if you are in a situation where an AAD fire is a legitimate save, then probability wise, it's likely best to have the cutter nearest the pin.

But the semi-pop-top rigs (Wings, Javelin, Dolphin*, Basik Seven**, etc) have only 2 flaps above the pilot chute, and nobody has ever shown they will bind on a too long closing loop.

(* Dolphin has 1 or 2 flaps above the pilot chute, depending on how you close it.)
(** Basik Seven has no side flaps either.)

Besides, on those rigs, it is immediately obvious when the closing loop is too long, as the pilot chute cap does not sit correctly.

Contrast this with rigs that have a completely enclosed pilot chute, where it is possible that a too long closing loop has little visual evidence, and has been shown to bind on at least one of them.

All I am saying is not to dis the semi-pop-top rigs that have the cutter below the freebag. They haven't been shown to need the cutter higher on the closing loop.

[firemedic 7]

All I am saying is not to dis the semi-pop-top rigs that have the cutter below the freebag. They haven't been shown to need the cutter higher on the closing loop.