fxc 12000 in a normal cypress/vigal ready container?

[kgp4death 0]

my wings container has a little window in the back sized for a cypres/vigil.....any way i can get a fxc 12000 add in there? the end is much bigger than the end of the vigil/cypress so not sure how i fit it....any one else fit it? if so how?

[NovaTTT 2]

Short answer: No.

The FXC 12000 will not fit in the Cypres-standard configuration.

Long answer: Maybe.

Contact Sunrise and ask them if they authorize the use of the FXC 12000 in your H/C. If they do, you can send your rig in or you can have your master rigger contact them for the installation kit and/or instructions.

If they do, and you do, your 12000 is probably out of date and you'll have to have it tested and certified by FXC.

Best answer: If you're going to use an AAD, invest in something modern.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Unstable 9]

I would like to Second NovaTTT's comments ~ I've seen some modern rigs retrofitted for FXC units (Mostly in DZ's that don't want to invest in proper gear) and it seems the modifications required would cost money better spent on a modern AAD...

=========Shaun ==========

[kgp4death 0]

what makes the fxc 12000 bad? it has been tested by the company recently.....I just like how it is mechanical and doesn't depend on batteries and electronics, especially if things get wet i trust mechanical more. Also i like how you can hear it doing it's thing on every jump so you know it is atleast doing something back there.....

[peek 21]

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what makes the fxc 12000 bad?

It's not "bad". Actually, it has saved a lot of lives.

It is just that there are better AADs now for the average skydiver, and it would be better to spend your money on one of those. (I think you are going to get this kind of advice from almost everyone.)

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Also i like how you can hear it doing it's thing on every jump so you know it is at least doing something back there.

Are you confusing that with the KAP3 AAD, which when used on a main container, activates every jump?

[NovaTTT 2]

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what makes the fxc 12000 bad?

It's not about "bad", it's about "better" and "more suitable".

The FXC12000 is old technology, oversized for most sport rigs, and lacks the sophisticated processing and settings requisite to an AAD in modern use.

If you're doing solo H&Ps and small-way RW at a Cessna DZ the 12000 might be a good choice.

IMO your money is better spent on a modern AAD (Cypres, Astra, Vigil, Argus).

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[pchapman 279]

FXC's seem cheap at first. Who knows, you may be able to get one nearly free. But they are supposed to be factory serviced every 2 years, for about $200 US (haven't checked in the last few years), so in the end they aren't really that cheap other than low acquisition cost.

[Unstable 9]

*Side Note*

I've always thought that FXC's answer to the Cypres, the Astra AAD was a valid choice and a good option. It has a good performance record, pretty easy to maintain and operate, and are well made. IMHO, if it wouldn't have come out right when Cypres was knocking the Skydiving world off it's chair, then we'd see more of them in the air now.

=========Shaun ==========

[DeNReN 0]

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my wings container has a little window in the back sized for a cypres/vigil.....any way i can get a fxc 12000 add in there? the end is much bigger than the end of the vigil/cypress so not sure how i fit it....any one else fit it? if so how?

You must be confusing the FXC 12000 with another AAD or have never seen one before...the control head of a fxc 12000 is approx 2"x2"x1" and could never fit in a cypress/vigil window...that and the fact that the on/off knob and adjustment slot must be accessible. being a pin puller would also require several mods to a modern sport container designed for a cutter AAD ......

only a fool would spend money to mod a wings to use a FXC 12000

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Also i like how you can hear it doing it's thing on every jump so you know it is atleast doing something back there.....

I deal with FXC 12000's alot and have never heard a noise from them.........

[sundevil777 102]

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*Side Note*

I've always thought that FXC's answer to the Cypres, the Astra AAD was a valid choice and a good option. It has a good performance record,

I wish the Astra lived up to its promises, but it doesn't (even with the switch cover). A guy had a misfire at my DZ in '02 at about 10K, and yes it did have the latest updates.

When I was in the market to buy an AAD for the first time, I wanted to believe the Astra was a good option, but then I read many, many first hand and witness accounts of misfires, and other problems. I quickly realized why they actually do have a bad reputation.

The Astra can be reset/recalibrated at whatever altitude that an intermittent circuit (power)/glitch/whatever happens. However the Cypress will shut itself off if it had an interruption of power-you have to go through all the button pushes to turn it back on, and then it would fail/not calibrate itself while climbing.

It is also way too easy to forget to turn it off between jumps - the batteries go dead very quickly. The Astra is just as "unintelligent" as the vigil - not able to filter out data that is not possible for a skydiver to experience, so it is similarly vulnerable to activation when it shouldn't.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Unstable 9]

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It is also way too easy to forget to turn it off between jumps - the batteries go dead very quickly. The Astra is just as "unintelligent" as the vigil - not able to filter out data that is not possible for a skydiver to experience, so it is similarly vulnerable to activation when it shouldn't.

That is what I understood the biggest complaint to be~ I've never heard of all those misfires you speak of... But then again I wasn't i the sport when Astra's came out...

=========Shaun ==========

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[fcajump 164]

To ensure we're talking about the same things:
FXC 12000:
http://www.paragear.com/templates/parachutes.asp?group=140&t2parent=5&parent=19&level=3
Older unit, pin puller, mechanical.
Control unit generally (that I've seen) mounted on the Mud-flap. Must be removed/serviced every 2 years. Pin Puller's are subject to failure if pin is bent or other wise a too hard-pull. We were always told to allow a cushion zone of 1000'-1500' above the firing altitude due to the inprecision of the unit. (BTW - I would not expect this to be unaffected by water immersion. Water and mechanical bario's don't get along well.)

FXC Astra:
http://www.fxcguardian.com/astrindx.htm
"Modern" AAD. Introduced around the same time as the Cypres. (It was not considered as precise as the cypres by the local community at the time, and honestly I've not followed it much.) Was used as the AAD of choice to ensure the deployment of Former President Bush's AFF main canopy. (I understand that a Cypres was used on his reserve...)
Can't speak to any water protection.

Cypress II - #1 Market choice. Service every 4, replace every 12. Anecdotally the least errant behavior of the modern AAD's on the market (by number of problems per number of units in the field). Designed to survive brief immersion in water. (field replaceable part required afterward... requires openning the reserve, but then you did just get your rig very wet...)

JW

PS - guess which one I have . Not saying its perfect... just seems to be the best option for the money.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[mark 107]

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FXC Astra:
http://www.fxcguardian.com/astrindx.htm
"Modern" AAD. Introduced around the same time as the Cypres. (It was not considered as precise as the cypres by the local community at the time, and honestly I've not followed it much.) Was used as the AAD of choice to ensure the deployment of Former President Bush's AFF main canopy. (I understand that a Cypres was used on his reserve...).

Actually, his set-up was identical to the system used by Air Force Academy cadets: FXC 12000 on the main, Cypres on the reserve.

The FXC 12000 can be easily set to activate at altitudes up to 4000 AGL.

The Astra fires at 1000' above the altitude it is turned on at; no adjustment is possible.

Mark

[Unstable 9]

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Actually, his set-up was identical to the system used by Air Force Academy cadets: FXC 12000 on the main, Cypres on the reserve.

The FXC 12000 can be easily set to activate at altitudes up to 4000 AGL.

The Astra fires at 1000' above the altitude it is turned on at; no adjustment is possible.

I love the way the Air Force Teaches Skydiving. FXC on Main, Cypres on Reserve, and out you go straight to Solo Freefall. Hahahahahhahahaha

=========Shaun ==========

[kgp4death 0]

ok seems pretty unanimous against fxc 12000.....damn

[RIGGER 0]

FXC USA made (There is FXC 12000 EUROPE by PdF) must be chamber tested at each reserve repack which means removing the FXC 12000 from the h/c & having a rigger with the chamber.

If it is an old unit it must be upgrade to version "J" by FXC & it cost as well.

Setting the unit into the Wings h/c will ask for some major mods. like internal pouch in the reserve container pack tray. housing holder, control unit holder on the MLW & holes & velcro for the clamp on the reserve pin flap (#3)

I'm not sure you would like the way it will look & the bulk in your back.

I think that after all of that you should think again.

We had FXC 12000 EUROPE on our Wings Student h/c & changed all ours to CYPRES 2 STUDENT.

Cheers!

[pchapman 279]

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FXC USA made (There is FXC 12000 EUROPE by PdF) msut be chamber tested at each reserve repack which means removing the FXC 12000 from the h/c & having a rigger with the chamber.

One additional point: The alternative is to build a chamber big enough to put the whole rig into, to avoid disassembly. Very handy for a DZ that still has a bunch of FXC's.

[riggerrob 643]

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FXC 12000 Was used as the AAD of choice to ensure the deployment of Former President Bush's AFF main canopy. (I understand that a Cypres was used on his reserve...).

Actually, his set-up was identical to the system used by Air Force Academy cadets: FXC 12000 on the main, Cypres on the reserve.

.........................................................................

(retired) President George Bush Senior used an FXC 12000 Rev. M on his main container, but it was more complicated than the U.S. Air Force Academy pattern. The additional of an extra main ripcord on the lower left corner of the main container (for the left-side AFF Instructor) so vastly complicated the activation process that Sandy Reid said "That is the last container of that pattern we will ever build.
After several days of trial and error, we eventually got it to deploy reliably - on the ground - but tolerances were far too tight to ever trust to your average sport packer.

[mark 107]

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One additional point: The alternative is to build a chamber big enough to put the whole rig into, to avoid disassembly. Very handy for a DZ that still has a bunch of FXC's.

The manual calls for the power cable to be pulled straight. You would still need to do a partial disassembly.

Mark

[pchapman 279]

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The manual calls for the power cable to be pulled straight. You would still need to do a partial disassembly.
Mark

That's interesting. I'd like to know more.

I've never seen a manual. It's not on FXC's web site, nor on a couple popular rigging manuals sites, nor have I seen one at a DZ with 30 FXC equipped rigs, where I used to do calibration tests on them.

I'm sure I asked FXC years back, but they sent what was really a product brochure, with only very abbreviated info on testing. I'll ask them again.

The only thing I ever saw that said anything like having the housing straight that was in a post by "alan" on dz.com in 2002.

So if they ever had a manual or further instructions, I'd sure like to see them!

(Heck, you sure don't disassemble a rig if the FXC is on the main container - with a spring loaded pilot chute-, every time it pops when a student pulls 500' low.)

[mark 107]

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I'm sure I asked FXC [for a manual] years back, but they sent what was really a product brochure, with only very abbreviated info on testing.

The 6-page manual would be easy to mistake for a product brochure. Heck, it probably is a product brochure. The straight-pull instruction is on page 3.

2.2 megs is too big to attach. Let me know where to email your copy.

Mark

[theonlyski 8]

Clicky

That the manual you're refering to?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[mark 107]

Yes, that's the one. Mine is in color.

Mark

[pchapman 279]

Yeah, that's the brochure / manual.

(We're getting away from the original thread topic; on the other hand, the original poster will have his answers by now...)

The pulling-the-straight-cable arming description they show there is in a section on chest mount reserves, and is also written as if it is a suggested method, rather than a procedure that must be followed. So it is easy to think it doesn't always apply.

Interesting topic though. I can see there'd be less wear on the FXC if one pulled with the housing straight, rather than around a curved housing. And to to oppose the pull force, pushing on the main box rather than pushing on the rig or attachment plate.

I suppose one could even follow up the 2002 post (#186958) by Alan (Alan Binnebose, Twardo reminds me), since he had provided some very specific info about FXC's, that seemed to go beyond what the factory has provided. Just how much I really care about digging up secrets of the FXC, that the factory doesn't seem to want to share, that I'm not sure of.

[tkhayes 348]

Forego the FXC 12000 any way you can, unless you only plan to use it for students and/or solo skydives.

It has a wide tolerance range, i.e. if you set it at 1000', that thing could go off at any time from 2500' and below. That means I do not want to be on a skydive with you

They require expensive and frequent service intervals, and even with that, their accuracy simply is not that great.

It requires grotesque (by todays standards) modifications to your gear to make it fit, and likely that many modern rigs simply do not accept it.

It was the standard in it''s day, which was 1970's to 1980's

We have far better products today. Doing any formation skydives with an FXC on (I believe), you could kill someone and yourself with an accidental firing.