500th!!!!! Dead Americans, That Is. . .

[goose491 0]

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THat is not true. Soldiers now where they are going! They may not tell you, but they know where they are going!

the last line is a bunch of crap as well. Soldiers have the right to question any ordr given to them if it is against the law. We in fact have a responsiblity to challenge something if it is not right. Our soldiers know the why and aren't stupid enough to believe a lie, and are smart enough to know if and when they are being lied to.

Yadda yadda yadda. You'll note I have not called you or any other soldier stupid... Thank you for noting it. Now let's move on.

You'll note that the activation orders are not "against the law" hehe, what law? You get activation orders, you go. That's it! Are you going to try and tell me that you can question that? That's a load of crap.

If you're going to tell me that all soldiers that receive activation orders know exactly what they'll be up to the very next day, then I call bullshit there too. You may speculate at home. You may forsee it... and that may make you clever. But you have no say in it so don't pretend you do. When you are sent to fight, you don't know the "why" outside your of own speculation and you are privy to no more of the "why" then I am sitting on my lazyboy watching the news.

It's laughable that you argue about this... as if it matters. Again, I present, you fight because you are told to. You cannot question it. And if you think you know the "why", well good for you but you'd be the exception, not the rule... and it still wouldn't matter.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rjf98 0]

That is your biggest mistake. The WTC WAS the target. The target WAS America's economic success and the symbol of Americas ECONOMIC power and the freedom of other nations to pursue monetary wealth.

You are severly misguided if you think that the terrorists are stupid enough to hit a non-military target and expect to achieve military gain. Sure the White House may have been a target, the Pentagon definetly was, but those were "first" times (so yes, the terrorists owe me beer).

The World Trade Center was a target in the past. The stated goal of Bin Laden was to strike a blow to the economic power of the US. That economic power comes from a societies freedom to pursue what they want. The system works BECAUSE of peoples natural tendancy to do what is best for them.

Never be misguided about what they hate. It isn't the US as a country, it's not our tendency to act in our best interest and not ask the world's opinion (that's what you hate)... it's our FREEDOM and SUCCESS. They hate us because they think success can't come from our type of freedom. They hate us because they used to be a powerful civilization and they can't be again as long as they pursue it through the "holy" koran. They hate it because our success and power only serves to highlight the abismal failure of their type of government.

[dgskydive 0]

Andrew, This is like the Veterans day thread. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.

By verbally attacking soldiers that are willing to give there lives for what is right. How do you expect people like Steve and myslef to react? Have you ever served your country? Have you ever been in harms way protecting some body elses rights? Until you have then you should keep your comments to yourself about soldiers. Talk about the GOVT. if you want to. Don't make comments about soldier that are negative. Without soldiers like myself and Steve and many others on this site. The world would be a lot more of shitty place then it is now. For the record I am not just speaking of US Soldiers. I am speaking for every fighting man and woman that has ever served a just nation.

Dom

[fudd 0]

I used to like the United States of America.
I really did!
The USA was a symbol of freedom and peace.

That was some years ago. I don't feel that anymore. I don't know excatly when it happend. Did something change, or did I just open my eyes a little more?

Now what I see is not a country fighting for freedom. I see a country abusing its powers. I see a country not respecting the rest of the world. I see a country, that goes ahead to war, without a UN conscent.
I see a country with an ever growing list of nations they want to consume.
I see a country that seems hungry for world domination.

I hear the people speaking of freedom, democracy and justice.

I'm confused. I AM SCARED!!!

The US soldier in Iraq, is fighting for what he believs in. He's fighting for the good guys.
He says is willing to die for his country, but what he really is willing to die for is to make the world a better place.

I admire that kind of devotion.

However, why am I feeling afraid of the USA?
Why do I feel this way?
I live in a country that is your friend.
I see the United States in a state of fear. I see the freedom slowly vanish.

This is how I feel.
Why?

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[rjf98 0]

Again...
NO... my fellow Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airman dying does not make me question the validity of the cause.

Is there nothing you would not willingly die for?

[SkydiverRick 0]

However, why am I feeling afraid of the USA?
Why do I feel this way?

[gary350 0]

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forbidding of even pictures being taken of their coffins

This is the first I've heard of that. Can you source it, please?

"Since the end of the Vietnam War, presidents have worried that their military actions would lose support once the public glimpsed the remains of U.S. soldiers arriving at air bases in flag-draped caskets."

"To this problem, the Bush administration has found a simple solution: It has ended the public dissemination of such images by banning news coverage and photography of dead soldiers' homecomings on all military bases."

"A White House spokesman said Bush has not attended any memorials or funerals for soldiers killed in action during his presidency as his predecessors had done, although he has met with families of fallen soldiers and has marked the loss of soldiers in Memorial Day and Sept. 11, 2001, remembrances."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55816-2003Oct20?language=printer

[andrewstewart 0]

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Andrew, YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.

You're going to have to do a better job of articulating your point than saying "you just don't get it".

[andrewstewart 0]

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Again...
NO... my fellow Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airman dying does not make me question the validity of the cause.

Is there nothing you would not willingly die for?

Okay, how about if 1000 soldiers died, or 10,000? How about 100,000? You're telling me that at no point would you ever start to question exactly why you're there?

[dgskydive 0]

So how many years did you serve in the military? Sounds like you know exactley how it works.

I never said activation orders are illegal. THey will be told as soon as they get there what is going on and know damn well exactley what is expected from them when they get there.
I said we have a right and the duty to question illegal orders. Meaning if I get to another country and they tell me to shoot somebody, they also should have told me long before I got there why I am there and why I am shooting at that guy. There are laws that must be followed dring war and if a slodiers orders do not follow the laws of war or the mission objective and hand then they are illegal and should not be followed.

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It's laughable that you argue about this... as if it matters. Again, I present, you fight because you are told to. You cannot question it. And if you think you know the "why", well good for you but you'd be the exception, not the rule... and it still wouldn't matter.

It is not laughable at all. You say we fight because we are told to. That is to simplistic of an answer! Soldiers are not robots that just follow orders.

Dom

[andrewstewart 0]

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They hate us because they used to be a powerful civilization and they can't be again as long as they pursue it through the "holy" koran.

That's completely wrong. Name a single reputable source that backs that up.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Again...
NO... my fellow Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airman dying does not make me question the validity of the cause.

Is there nothing you would not willingly die for?

Okay, how about if 1000 soldiers died, or 10,000? How about 100,000? You're telling me that at no point would you ever start to question exactly why you're there?

You're trying to argue a different point.

never pull low......unless you are

[Michele 1]

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I wish I knew. I really do. I can only speculate that the US uses economic policies that create hardship for the people of the countries where most of the hate is coming from. Someone out there must know why and I'd really like to get their opinion.

I'd also like to get yours. Why do you think someone would attack your country in such a horrible manner?? Personal opinion will do, I don't expect you understand it. After all if I don't get it how can I ask you to?

Tell ya what, Ian.

When I get home from work (later this evening), I will try to share my understanding of the situation, personal opinion and all. I dunno if it's right, or if I'm even close, but I'll try to explain what I see going on.

Can you, though, give me your thoughts - you seem well read, and willing to have an honest exchange - as to why it happened? I will accept your personal opinion, as well. Mybe explain the economic policies you reference and their impact, or something like that.

Deal?

In the meantime, everyone, let's try to keep this civil, so I don't have a deleted post or locked post to contend with...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rjf98 0]

Start counting numbers any time you want. How many innocents have to die before you are willing to act. 1000, 10000, how about a million? Do we need to wait until our enemy is ready to fight us and can effectively use WMD or Nuclear weapons against us if we attack.

NO, I will not allow you to question the validity or the purpose of a fight by counting how many have to die to achieve the victory.

[dgskydive 0]

I could talk till I am blue in the face and you would just not get it! How do I know this? because I have had the conversation with others as well. Unless you have been there and been a part of it you just won't get it!
Serve you country. Fight for some elses rights and way of life. Actually get out and help someone that needs it. Then you will get it.

Dom

[Jimbo 0]

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Deal?

Said the spider to the fly...

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[andrewstewart 0]

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Do we need to wait until our enemy is ready to fight us and can effectively use WMD or Nuclear weapons against us if we attack.

The only way to achieve that strategy would be to invade everyone and rule the entire world. Not entirely plausable, is it.

You are basically saying that preemptive war is justifiable in all circumstances. That is exactly the attitude that makes people scared of the US, and it will drive people TOWARDS groups who would seek to harm us.

By attacking, you only create more enemies. It's a viscious cycle that you can only break by talking a cold hard look at the reasons why people fear you and hate you.

Your strategy is inherently self-defeating.

[gary350 0]

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Is there nothing you would not willingly die for?

Speaking as someone who lost untold relatives in the holocaust, and as someone who is deeply disgusted by the apathy and "pacifism" in the 30's that greatly contributed to it, I can absolutely say that I have long been a supporter not only of war, when necessary, but even of preemptive action to protect America and our allies.

Hell, ask me if George Bush should have taken our kids to Afghanistan to fight and die while kicking the Taliban's ass - hell yes! Fuck them all!

This is different!
It is NOT necessary!
It is based on lies and deceit!
We have desperately more important things to do with the money!

Please do not infer that anyone who hates this waste of life and money does not ever think there are things worth fighting and dieing for.

[rjf98 0]

I'd be happy to cite my sources. They are not however news media, but my the books I have chosen to read on terror and the mindset of the terrorist.

Contrary to your belief that soldiers simply "do what they are told" we research and try to understand our enemies so that we can win. We want to know the culture because killing the guy with the gun isn't enough to constitute victory, in this case changing thousands of years of political thought is.

My library is currently packed up, but the first two books that come to mind are Triumph of Terror, or American Jihad.

Maybe (The Bear Went Over the Mountain)
Sorry, just can't think of the many more that I have read on the topics.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Do we need to wait until our enemy is ready to fight us and can effectively use WMD or Nuclear weapons against us if we attack.

The only way to achieve that strategy would be to invade everyone and rule the entire world. Not entirely plausable, is it.

You are basically saying that preemptive war is justifiable in all circumstances. That is exactly the attitude that makes people scared of the US, and it will drive people TOWARDS groups who would seek to harm us.

By attacking, you only create more enemies. It's a viscious cycle that you can only break by talking a cold hard look at the reasons why people fear you and hate you.

Your strategy is inherently self-defeating.

So, are you saying if we just give OSL a big hug, he'll forgive us?

never pull low......unless you are

[andrewstewart 0]

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Unless you have been there and been a part of it you just won't get it!

Are you saying that no one who has not been on the ground in Iraq is allowed to comment on the situation there? That's about as unamerican in sentiment as you can get.

[rjf98 0]

We'll I tend to believe we've had this strategy for a while now....

We're still here aren't we

[andrewstewart 0]

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So, are you saying if we just give OSL a big hug, he'll forgive us?

Of course not. Duh.

I'm saying that he is the symptom, not the cause. If you want to fix the root of the issue, deal with the causes and not the symptoms.

[andrewstewart 0]

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We'll I tend to believe we've had this strategy for a while now....

We're still here aren't we

Yeah, and we're in a whole bunch of trouble.

[Ian84 0]

You've got yourself a deal. I thank you for the well thought out arguments you have made. It is beneficial to this discussion. I wish we could all express our opinions in such a civil manner.