Red Rover Code

[quade 4]

This is why I've made certain assumption: English translation, some code such as Baudot, Murray or ASCII that you might be able to find on the internet . . .

Like any secret or magic trick, I'm certain that once the code is revealed, it will seem almost trivial.

Also, the basic code itself may be trivial, but the entire method requires that a person read the message off the disc correctly to begin with in the proper direction. I assume the way to do it would be left to right, top to bottom, but I've tried both Murray and Baudot in 4 different directions so far and have some up blank.

It's a very interesting puzzle and the Red Rover web page does say it's a sophisticated code, so, although I imagine it "doable" by children, I also assume it would take some thinking and imagination.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 2,027]

It's an encoded version of "Indian Love Call" by Slim Whitman.

our.homewithgod.com/heavensgates/Back2the50s/IndianLoveCall.html

edited to add link

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[happythoughts 0]

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It's an encoded version of "Indian Love Call" by Slim Whitman.

It looks like they bolted down a CD. The rest is just cover art.

With all the trouble that they've had with Mars landers, I hope it isn't "Oops, I did it again" by BS.

[n2skdvn 0]

Quote

It's an encoded version of "Indian Love Call" by Slim Whitman.

our.homewithgod.com/heavensgates/Back2the50s/IndianLoveCall.html

edited to add link

I think my heads gonna burst

if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

[Slappie 9]

Quote

Quote

It's an encoded version of "Indian Love Call" by Slim Whitman.

our.homewithgod.com/heavensgates/Back2the50s/IndianLoveCall.html

edited to add link

I think my heads gonna burst

I just got a massive headache.. OoooooOOooooooooooooo

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[Guest]

Quote

This is why I've made certain assumption: English translation, some code such as Baudot, Murray or ASCII that you might be able to find on the internet . . .

Like any secret or magic trick, I'm certain that once the code is revealed, it will seem almost trivial.

Also, the basic code itself may be trivial, but the entire method requires that a person read the message off the disc correctly to begin with in the proper direction. I assume the way to do it would be left to right, top to bottom, but I've tried both Murray and Baudot in 4 different directions so far and have some up blank.

It's a very interesting puzzle and the Red Rover web page does say it's a sophisticated code, so, although I imagine it "doable" by children, I also assume it would take some thinking and imagination.

"Don't forget to drink your Ovaltine!"



mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[quade 4]

Quote

"Don't forget to drink your Ovaltine!"

Man, you're slow.

I already discounted that specific phrase higher in the thread because of it's character length.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[metalslug 36]

My feeling is that the 'code' is very likely to be mathematical in nature rather than linguistic.
I thought it may be a map of some kind indicating binary values that correspond to astronomical distances between planets.
3 rings of code around a disk, 3 closest planets around the sun, of which the third is earth.

I converted the | to 1 and the • to 0 and almost got hopeful too, but my theory soon fell flat:

|•|••|||•••||||||••||•••|
•||•••||||•|||•••|•|••|••
||••••|•••||••||••||••••|

If assumed to be binary would be:

1010011100011111100110001
0110001111011100010100100
1100001000110011001100001

which, according to my trusty Windoze calculator is:

21905201
13088932
25454177

Now, taking planetary separation distances:

Sun to Mercury 35991000 miles (approx.)
Mercury to Venus 31248000 miles (approx.)
Venus to Earth 25761000 miles (approx.)

The Venus to Earth distance comes close to the third binary value, but not really close enough, and the other two values are way out. Pity, I thought I was on to something.

[newsstand 0]

They added a clue. Sorry about the width but I didn't want to break it up in some arbitrary manner.

Quote

Clue No. 1, January 10, 2004:

A longer text using the same code would read:

-llll-llll-----l-ll-lll-l-l-l-ll--l---lll-------ll---llll----l----ll-l-l-llll--l---lll-l-ll-ll-----llll-ll-l--lll-ll-l-llll--l---ll---lll--l----ll----ll--ll--l---l-l-lll----l-l-ll---------lll--l-l-llll-----lll-l-l-lll-ll-lll---lll--l-l-l-ll---ll-ll--llllll-l---ll---lll-ll----ll-l---l-l--l-llll--l.---ll---lll--l-----llll-llll------lll-lll-lllll-ll-ll-llll--ll---lll----l-ll--,---ll---lll--l-----l-ll-l-lll-l-l---ll----ll--llll---llll---l-llll----l-lllll----ll--l---lllllll,---ll----ll--ll--ll----l---ll---llll---ll--l--ll---ll--llll---lll--l-ll-------ll----ll--ll-l-ll-------ll--ll--lll-l-ll-ll-l---l-l--lll---lll-l-lll-l-l---ll-ll--lll-l-----l---l-l-l-l---lll-l--------lll-l-llll--ll-l--lll--ll--ll----l---ll-----ll---lll-l-l-llll-----l---ll-llllll---l-l-l-l---lll-l-------llll-llll--lll--lll-l-ll-llll-----llll.

Can you solve it now?

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[quade 4]

810 data bits if you take out the 2 periods and 2 commas.

My theory still work of a 5 data bit character turning into each English phrase letter. The addition fo the commas and spaces kinds guarantees the letter part of the theory, but doesn't necessarily solve the data bit length issue and, of course, still gives no real clue how to read it off the disc correctly.

I'll play around with this one a bit tonight.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Oh oh . . .

297 bits to the first period.

78 bits to the first comma of the second sentance.

96 bits from the first to the second comma of the second sentace.

339 bits from the second comma to the period of the second sentace.

Crap, this totally blows my 5 bit per character theory out of the water.

As the boys over at the NSA say . . . back to the drawing board.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Ok, new theory, but I'm not certain how it's going to work.

The ONLY thing all the numbers have in common is the factor of 3, which implies a 3 bit per letter code.

How the heck do you represent 26 letters using 3 bits?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[flighty 0]

here is the text if you convert as follows for a three bit code
000 z
001 a
010 b
011 c
100 d
101 e
110 f
111 g

C F G D Z E E F E B F B A
F Z Z F A G Z B Z F E C F
B A F E E D Z G E E A F F
E G A Z F A F B Z F Z F C
A Z E C D A B F Z Z A F B
E G Z A F E C E E F A F B
E C Z F F C G E Z F A F F
Z F D B D E G A .
Z F A F B Z C F G D Z C E
F G F F F G D F A F Z E D ,
Z F A F B Z B F E F E Z F
Z F C F A G Z E G Z B G F
Z F B A G G ,
Z F Z F C A D A Z F A G Z
F B C Z F C F A F B F Z Z
F Z F C B F Z Z F C A F E
E E Z E A F A F E F E Z F
F C E Z A Z E B D C E Z
Z A F E G A E A F C A D A
Z F Z C Z G B E G Z A Z F
G G Z E B D C E Z Z C F G
D G A F E E G Z A G .


Since 000 follows every punctuation, I would guess it is a space holder, but that leaves only 7 letters.
C F G D _ E E F E B F
B A F _ _ F A G _ B _
F E C F B A F E E D _
G E E A F F E G A _ F
A F B _ F _ F C A _ E
C D A B F _ _ A F B E
G _ A F E C E E F A F
B E C _ F F C G E _ F
A F F _ F D B D E G A .
_ F A F B _ C F G D _ C
E F G F F F G
D F A F _ E D , _ F A
F B _ B F E F E _ F _ F
C F A G _ E G _ B G F
_ F B A G G , _ F _ F C
A D A _ F A G _ F B C _
F C F A F B F _ _ F _ F
C B F _ _ F C A F E E E
_ E A F A F E F E _ F F
C E _ A _ E B D C E _ _
A F E G A E A F C A D A
_ F _ C _ G B E G _ A _
F G G _ E B D C E _ _ C
F G D G A F E E G _ A G .

Ok, I got nothin
~Cindy~

[Guest]

One key to cracking a cypher is finding a repetition.

There is a repeated string after two instances of punctuation.

Notice that at the beginning of the fifth line, there is a | followed by a period. The bits that follow are--

---ll---lll--l-----

On the very next line, there is a comma, followed the very same pattern.

We can safely assume that a space follows a punctuation mark in this cypher, so the length of a character may be longer, perhaps 18 bits, which is a variant of the 3x we've discussed here. The only trouble with my theory is that the next punctuation mark is followed by only part of this pattern.


-llll-llll-----l-ll-lll-l-l-l-ll--l---lll-------ll---llll----l----ll-l-l-

llll--l---lll-l-ll-ll-----llll-ll-l--lll-ll-l-llll--l---ll---lll--l----ll---

-ll--ll--l---l-l-lll----l-l-ll---------lll--l-l-llll-----lll-l-l-lll-ll-

lll---lll--l-l-l-ll---ll-ll--llllll-l---ll---lll-ll----ll-l---l-l--l-llll--

|.---ll---lll--l-----llll-llll------lll-lll-lllll-ll-ll-llll--ll---lll----l-

ll--,---ll---lll--l-----l-ll-l-lll-l-l---ll----ll--llll---llll---l-llll----

l-lllll----ll--l---lllllll,---ll----ll--ll--ll----l---ll---llll---ll--l--

ll---ll--llll---lll--l-ll-------ll----ll--ll-l-ll-------ll--ll--lll-l-ll-

ll-l---l-l--lll---lll-l-lll-l-l---ll-ll--lll-l-----l---l-l-l-l---lll-l-----

---lll-l-llll--ll-l--lll--ll--ll----l---ll-----ll---lll-l-l-llll-----l---

ll-llllll---l-l-l-l---lll-l-------llll-llll--lll--lll-l-ll-llll-----llll.

Edit to add: finding the most common instance of a repetition may also work. The most commonly-used character in the English language is the letter "E", so, assuming this message isn't "ACK-ACKACK-ACK!" (), we could assign "E" to the pattern of bits that occurs the most.

Paul, I still think 5 bits is a sound theory, because that's the absolute minimum by which the 26-character English alphabet could be represented as a binary expression (2^5=31 [with "zero" discarded because it can't be used to represent a language character in this case])

Edited again to add: This MUST be a binary expression; here's why: The data stream from Mars is in BINARY, right? The educators are doubtless beating kids over the head with this as we speak.

So I think that's the key. 5 bit binary. I haven't tested my theory yet, but if I'm right, it's thusly:

"A" is ----|
"B" is ---|-
"C" is ---||
"D" is --|--
"E" is --|-|
"F" is --||-
"G" is --|||
"H" is -|---

and so on.

Another factor is that in the "hint" message, punctuation isn't expressed in binary form as it would be in ASCII.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[quade 4]

Ramblings . . . (this is really the way my silly mind works).

Gotta feeling it's a little more complex than that. Maybe there's some sort of shift bit strategy? No, that's way too freekin' complex.

But, I'm also beginning to wonder about a 3 bit code anyway.

Let's assume the first 297 bit message was made of 3-bits. Let's also assume there are embedded spaces between every word.

Could you really write an understandable sentence 99 characters long without a comma and implying about 16 to 17 words? Well, I suppose so. Hmmm . . .

I mean, the Red Rover folks are showing us where the commas are in the second sentance, so I have to assume that the first sentace contains no commas.

How about from the second comma to the last period? 339 bits.

A 3-bit code would mean 113 characters without another comma and imply about 21 to 23 words without another comma?

Ok, I guess 3-bit isn't ruled out . . . but 5-bit would have been so damn much easier! I still have no freekin' clue how a 3-bit code could possibly get you 26 letters and a space (assuming there is a space and not simply implied). Hmmm . . . 27 . . . too bad 27 only factors into 297 and none of the other numbers.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Quote

Paul, I still think 5 bits is a sound theory, because that's the absolute minimum by which the 26-character English alphabet could be represented as a binary expression (2^5=31 [with "zero" discarded because it can't be used to represent a language character in this case])

The real problem with a 5-bit code is those damn numbers that it doesn't go into evenly -- like the 297 bits of the first sentance.

It bugs the crap out of me that they'd put in "extra" bits just to throw us off like you'd do in a real cyper environment, so I have to assume that all the bits in the sentance are there for a reason.

As to the repeating pattern you found, yes, I also noticed that, but it doesn't have to be a single letter, it -could- be a repeated word.

I did a breakdown earlier tonight of the 5-bit groups and it looked like a fairly normal english letter distibution, with some groups being used significantly more than others. In particular I had a favorite of mine already slated as a temporary "e", but when I went to break down the sentance, I discovered the 297 bit problem which made me sit up and re-evaluate my entire strategy.

BTW, that "00000" problem of yours -- no problem, that could just as easily be any character or space for that matter, so you really do get 32 characters from 5 bits. As a matter of fact, in the old Baudot and Murray codes, you use one of the "extra" characters as a "shift" and you get a whole other set of characters. So, with the 5-bit code you really can end up with a heck of a lot more characters than just 32.

I suppose you could do the same sort of thing with 3-bits.

000 = 0 or 6
001 = 1 or 7
010 = 2 or 8
011 = 3 or 9
100 = 4 or A
101 = 5 or B
110 = shift
111 = unshift

So that gives you 12 possible characters out of 3-bits.

I'm going to rule OUT anything like this for the Red Rover Code because I think it's just way too freekin' complex for the intended audience of this puzzle.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[dustin19d 0]

You guys got me hooked now.. please hurry up and solve it!

[quade 4]

Quote

So I think that's the key. 5 bit binary. I haven't tested my theory yet, but if I'm right, it's thusly:

"A" is ----|
"B" is ---|-
"C" is ---||
"D" is --|--
"E" is --|-|
"F" is --||-
"G" is --|||
"H" is -|---

and so on.

Ah, well, I -tried- that yesterday. Actually it was the first thing I tried. I tried reading the message in 4 different directions and in two different polarities for a total of 8 ways and came up with zilch.

Maybe I goofed up somewhere along the line.

I'll give it another shot.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Oh, no joy on the "simple" way you tried it. Gibberish.

BTW, by polarity I mean |=0 and •=1 OR |=1 and •=0 so as you can see, even if you KNEW it was 5-bit Baudot, Murray or ASCII you'd still have to try to read it at least two different ways.

ALSO, what if they decided to use binary 0 to 8 to represent numbers and THEN started the alphabet? Sort of makes sense in a way, you could easily drop y & z and you'd be starting a with 01001.

edited to add Nope. Gibberish.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Guest]

Quote

Quote

So I think that's the key. 5 bit binary. I haven't tested my theory yet, but if I'm right, it's thusly:

"A" is ----|
"B" is ---|-
"C" is ---||
"D" is --|--
"E" is --|-|
"F" is --||-
"G" is --|||
"H" is -|---

and so on.

Ah, well, I -tried- that yesterday. Actually it was the first thing I tried. I tried reading the message in 4 different directions and in two different polarities for a total of 8 ways and came up with zilch.

Maybe I goofed up somewhere along the line.

I'll give it another shot.

What's odd about the "hint" message is that there appear to be characters representing spaces after the first period and the first comma, but they might be characters, and not spaces at all.

I still think we're on the right track. Binary Coded Decimal is a crude way of representing Base-10 numbers as binary expressions--

0 = 0000
1 = 0001
2 = 0010
3 = 0011
4 = 0100
5 =0101
6 = 0110
7 = 0111
8 = 1000
9 = 1001

Thus, the decimal integer 397d (three hundred ninety-seven) is expressed as 0011 1001 0111, instead of its legitimate binary value, which would be-

110001101, or 18h.

The message might also be a variant of Grey Code, given the plaque's resemblance to a coded wheel.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[quade 4]

Quote

The message might also be a variant of Grey Code, given the plaque's resemblance to a coded wheel.

Grey Code?

Would that be some sort of cruel, cruel pun?

Crap, look at the time. I was going to go to bed by 9 pm and here it is 11:30 pm.

I have 4-way tomorrow! Crap, early morning and everything. First load kinda crap!

Oh well, this'll have to wait until tomorrow.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[champu 1]

well another thing about the three bit code that interests me is that there are three rows of characters on the dvd, perhaps each column is a character, and each octal digit can represent more than one letter and context distinguishes?

Also, because they inserted punctuation, I think it's safe to assume punctuation can't be represented. Spaces maybe though... I'll try and see if this goes anywhere...

/eta: this is rather quickly turning into a nightmare

[metalslug 36]

Quote

A longer text using the same code would read: ...

Apparently, I've been thinking way too simply then, but I'm really curious why the message would be a text message at all.
Is the 'message' a publicity stunt to raise public interest in the Rover project so as to improve NASA's chances of getting funding for similar future projects ?

I have always assumed that a message of any kind contained in or on a remote NASA probe or vehicle would be for the purpose of indicating the intelligent nature of the species that created it. If it should ever happen that intelligent extra-terrestrial life finds one of the vehicles or probes of ours, we would be optimistic to think that they would understand English text and/or have ASCII charts tucked under their arms.
It is for this reason that such messages should be universaly mathematical rather than linguistic or even alphanumeric.
For example; binary code corresponding to pixels or plotted coordinates that make up an image or a constant mathematical sequence such as prime numbers.

So, why is there a message at all on the Rover and who is the message intended for ?
Perhaps, if an alien life does ever find the Rover, they may not be more intelligent than the average DZ.commer (no disrespect intended), and would be struggling just as we are to decipher the message. Is that NASA's intention, to exclude comprehension by any creature with less than genius intelligence ?

[newsstand 0]

It was funded by the Planetary Society and more information can be found here.

There doesn't appear to be information about it on the Spanish language version of the site and there doesn't seem to be any at the Lego site either. Both of these imply an English speaking audience to me.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[zyne 0]

If we assume a period is followed by two spaces •••|| would the code for it thus confirming its a 5 bit code.
It would also suggest the message is read from top to bottom, left to right.

Errrr .. scratch that, must have been a brain fart or I just haven't had enough coffee to wake up yet ..