PhreeZone 20 #251 January 7, 2004 >The Bent Prop in Eloy had a wall of shame at one time, for the people who lacked morals and were a disgrace skydiving. Oh oh oh oh.... lets create 2 blacklists. One of dealers that sell gear to people that should'nt buy it, and the second is a list of people that would sue for a skydiving related thing. You think people read the warning labels? Hell most of the people out there think that the 45 degree thing for exit seperation is the only correct way to spot . Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #252 January 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteDoes the warning label on the parachute mean nothing to people? Do you think its just decoration? Generally speaking, yes... to many skydivers it means nothing, and is just decoration... and even to many that read it and understand what it represents, it does not pardon gross neglignece... which is what this suit asserted, and was not contradicted by the defendant. I'm assuming you can PROVE this was gross negligence since you are so quick to find them guilty WITHOUT hearing their side and reading all the posts, especially the one where it stated Rubio knew, and jumped with a worn out pilot chute. I can't believe you won't take the warning label seriously and you think its okay for people to think its just decoration. JBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #253 January 7, 2004 QuoteThe Bent Prop in Eloy had a wall of shame at one time, for the people who lacked morals and were a disgrace skydiving. Oh Oh Oh! The Ranch at one time had the Wall of Pain, maybe it's still there. Not quite the same, but still... - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #254 January 7, 2004 nobody on the board has said he was guilty! and we can't possibly hear his side, because he didn't bother to show up in court and explain his side. all I've seen anyone say was that, given the current information here on the board, there MAY have been a justifiable reason for a suit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #255 January 7, 2004 Quotenobody on the board has said he was guilty! Taken from jdhill post: and even to many that read it and understand what it represents, it does not pardon gross neglignece... which is what this suit asserted, and was not contradicted by the defendant. It sounds to me that he thinks they are guilty. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #256 January 8, 2004 I did not find them guilty, a jury did... You're correct, I don't have all the facts, and have at no time said they were guilty of anything except poor judgement in their legal strategy. I also, did not say that I don't take warning lables seriously, or approve of those folks that think they are just decoration... the fact remains that those people exist, and are on the plane with us every day. I also think (but have no statistical evidence) that most people would say that the warning lable means jack shit when negligence is involved, and the only way to *prove* that, is in court, either criminal or civil. J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #257 January 8, 2004 no. it sounds to me like he said "the plaintiff accused the defendant of gross negligence. The defendant said nothing to dispute the claim of the plaintiff." remaining silent does not constitute guilt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #258 January 8, 2004 Quote remaining silent does not constitute guilt. My point exactly. Thank you we can finally agree on something in this tread.JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #259 January 8, 2004 Just a quick note on terminology. "Guilty" is not the proper word. "Guilty" is a term used in criminal matters, which nobody has suggested. "Liable" is the counterpart on the civil side, i.e., liable for the injury of the plaintiff. It's beside the main point, but I thought I would point it out. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #260 January 8, 2004 QuoteThan I got a PM and, with permission, I'm posting it: "He was jumping within the placarded weight for this reserve, he was doing a RW jump (I think a 4 way) he had a P/C in tow, he cutaway 1st then deployed his reserve, the reserve did have some burn damage from his main which did deploy as the reserve was coming out. The P/C in tow was a worn out p/c that he knew he needed to replace, he commented that it had been giving him some trouble. His medical Ins did have something to do with the lawsuit. As far as his injuries well he was f-uped for a long time, has had a ton of surgeries and did about die a few times in the begining. As far a long term I am sure there will be lasting affects but he is lucky cause he is walking and talking and for the most part you can not tell he was ever injured. " This PM changes everything for me. The main deployed as the reserve deployed, and the reserve was damaged. At that point all bets are off. I can't expect a reserve to hold together if it is damaged by the main. The other big point, for me anyway, was; "His medical Ins did have something to do with the lawsuit.". Thank you for posting that information Hooknswoop. That provides much needed facts for those of here who are very concerned about all aspects of this accident and the resultant lawsuit. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyPsycho 0 #261 January 8, 2004 Quote QuoteThe Bent Prop in Eloy had a wall of shame at one time, for the people who lacked morals and were a disgrace skydiving. Oh Oh Oh! The Ranch at one time had the Wall of Pain, maybe it's still there. Not quite the same, but still... - Jim its still there........lots of great pics.....fading and old _______________________________ HK MP5SD.........silence is golden Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #262 January 8, 2004 remaining silent doesn't make someone guilty (or liable ) BUT, saying nothing sure does LOOK incriminating. some would draw the conclusion that the defendant presented no defense simply because he didn't have a defense to present. Not saying that is the case, or that it isn't the case, just that it makes the defendant look bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #263 January 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteTime off work costs money Not defending themselves will cost them money, or more likely the entire business... J A rookie can beat a lawyer: We had a property line dispute with a neighbor and had to get a restraining order against them. When we went to court two weeks later to have the restraining made permanent the neighbor shows up with his lawyer The lawyer does his thing I present the judge with a survey preformed by a liscensed surveyor showing gross encroachment onto my property. The judge rejects my request for a pemanemt restraining order and rejects my neighbor's request to be compensated for attorney fee's. Result:Neighbor removes his crap from my property, pays his own arttorney fee's and I get a 6ft tall privacy fence along our property line for free. I pay for the survey so I think I broke even. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #264 January 8, 2004 um... you said the judge REJECTED your request? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BETO74 0 #265 January 8, 2004 QuoteWhen did I say I wanted to represent Precision? Saying Precision does not have any morals is an attack but since you said it about a company, they may let it slide. --------------------------------------------------------- You never said that sorry I just though you could represent them very well............. As Precision not having any morals you should read my post again and interpreted what ever you want, I don't think it says that. ------------------------------------------------------------ The Bent Prop in Eloy had a wall of shame at one time, for the people who lacked morals and were a disgrace skydiving. Judy ---------------------------------------------------------- I guess I won't be going to Eloy anytime soon. I don't wanna upset any potential buyier of my Raven ---------------------------------------------------------- ***You seem a little worried about the "list". Like I said before, I don't and won't ever own a gear store, gear company, or dz. ------------------------------------------------------------ Uff......I was very worry about thathttp://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #266 January 8, 2004 QuoteThe thing with being a defendant is that you don't have to prove your case. The prosecution has the burden of proof. You just have to cast enough doubt on their version of things. In a civil case there is no prosecution and no defendant. I believe he would be called a respondent. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #267 January 8, 2004 I meant Plaintiff. sorry. In United States law, a defendant is any person who is required to answer the complaint of a plaintiff in a civil suit or any person who has been named in a criminal information or criminal complaint and stands accused of violating a criminal statute. A defendant in a civil action usually makes his or her first court appearance, voluntarily, in response to a summons whereas a defendant in a criminal case is usually taken into custody by a peace officer and brought before a court, pursuant to an arrest warrant. The actions of a defendant, and their counsel, is known as the defence. A respondent is the parallel term used in a proceeding which is commenced by petition. A petition is a request to an authority, most commonly a government official or public entity. In the colloquial sense, a petition is a document addressed to some official and signed by numerous individuals. A petition may be oral rather than written, and in this era may be transmitted via the Internet. The term also has a specific meaning in the legal profession as a request, directed to a court or administrative tribunal, seeking some sort of relief such as a court order. http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defendant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #268 January 8, 2004 QuoteI've heard a lot of people suing SUV companies because they can roll more easily than a regular car. A better solution - if you don't want head and neck injuries from a rollover, DON'T BUY A TOPHEAVY VEHICLE! Or don't drive with Fartin' Marin! Sorry Bill. You just gave me a flash back! "Hold on to your coffee, Bonnie", he said. Gadoonk, gadoonk, gadoonk... The truck is upside down now, I look over to see coffee all over Martins face. "I couldn't hold on to the coffee, sorry.", was all I could think of saying. I'm back now.... carry on. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #269 January 8, 2004 You're explanation is bringing happy tears to a lawyer's eyes. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #270 January 8, 2004 Quoteum... you said the judge REJECTED your request? Correct my request was for a R.O. it was a I said my neighbor threatened me with bodily harm. The neighbor denied it ever happened. But the survey and photo's that I presented showed my neighbor had a good reason for threatening me. Like a couple of thousand sq ft of my property. So the judge also rejected my neigjbors request for attorney fee's for filing a frivioules law suit. In Wa state real estate issues are decided in the superior court. To my surprise we didn't have to go that far. In the spirit of cooperation my neighbor removed his garden etc from my property in two days. We didn't even have to ask. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #271 January 8, 2004 I've come across two extremes in this sport. The first extreme are students and tandems that scrape a shin, don't pick up their legs when told, or they totally brain-lock and forget the groundschool resulting in colllisions with power lines or trees or flying right into the prop. After this happens, they want money. Pilot error, stupid moves, whatever- no real grounds for a lawsuit. The other extreme is the one that is coming out here. These are jumpers that are willing to issue a 'blanket statement' of total absolution to everything skydiving related. This is just as dangerous to the sport. Let me see if I understand this (correct me if I am wrong). Prior to early 1999 PA used tape with a single bartack. OK- this was probably fine. After this point they changed to alternate attachment methods for the lines including double stiching and different tapes. Why? Because they found it was weak in the long run. As a response to this, they updated their manufacturing methods to keep up with the sport. They could have easily issued a non-mandatory bulletin or just an email to the rigging community saying, in essence, "We at PA are striving to improve our products to meet the changing needs of the sport. Although our Raven -M is a fine product with hundreds of documented saves, we feel it can be improved even more by adding a second bartack etc etc etc. Or, if you are a total cheapskate and don't want to pay your rigger for an hour to do the stitching, send it back to us postage paid and we'll work it into our production schedule when we have time oh, say, around spring 2002." How about the Crossfire? "We at Icarus have gotten rave reviews for our Crossfire canopy and feel it is a wonderful product. After digesting feedback from swoopers and extreme skydivers all over the world, we feel the performance of the Crossfire under extremem loadings and radical maneuvers can be improved by adjusting the canopy as follows: " But no, someone had to die before they said anything. As I said initialy, this is not a monetary lawsuit. PA could have headed this off but chose not to. Well, it's time for a Cabernet. Later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #272 January 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteI do find it odd that the company apparently chose not to answer the suit. I don't. Know how much it costs to simply defend a case like that? Do you really think skydiving equipment manufacturer's have that kind of money? All too true, but by not answering anything, Precision defaulted the case. The judge might have even instructed the jury to that effect (I don't know if he did, but he may have). When you're sued you're sued, if you don't defend yourself you lose. Nightingale's right, Mr. Galloway could've appeared in person and tried to present his own defense to the jury. Precision's complete absence from the courtroom was not a smart move on their part and probably made a lousy impression on the jury. And juries by the way are just people like you and me. They resent not being able to work at their jobs and want to get it over with. Nevertheless, enough of them really do try to be fair and take their duty seriously. I've sat on a few juries and was a jury foreman once, signing a felony verdict that sent a man to prison. It's something every one of you should do sometime. But skydivers who sue skydivers are still assholes. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #273 January 8, 2004 Beautifully put tbrown. "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
precision 0 #274 January 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Now, the second issue is if the lawsuit should have been placed or not. That is a question I don't think any of us can answer, until we've heard from Precision. I'm eagerly awaiting them jumping in on this thread, "He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Shun him. He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child. Teach him. He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep. Wake him. He who knows, and knows that he knows, is a leader. Follow him." ----Attributed to Omar Khayam, 13th century philosopher "In the fullness of time All will be shown The unknown will be known In the fullness of time" ----Marshall Chapman 1996, Tall Girl Records, Nashville George Galloway, Precision Aerodynamics Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #275 January 8, 2004 QuoteI meant Plaintiff. sorry. In United States law, a defendant is any person who is required to answer the complaint of a plaintiff in a civil suit or any person who has been named in a criminal information or criminal complaint and stands accused of violating a criminal statute. A defendant in a civil action usually makes his or her first court appearance, voluntarily, in response to a summons whereas a defendant in a criminal case is usually taken into custody by a peace officer and brought before a court, pursuant to an arrest warrant. The actions of a defendant, and their counsel, is known as the defence. A respondent is the parallel term used in a proceeding which is commenced by petition. A petition is a request to an authority, most commonly a government official or public entity. In the colloquial sense, a petition is a document addressed to some official and signed by numerous individuals. A petition may be oral rather than written, and in this era may be transmitted via the Internet. The term also has a specific meaning in the legal profession as a request, directed to a court or administrative tribunal, seeking some sort of relief such as a court order. http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defendant I stand corrected. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
