PhillyKev 0 #26 January 20, 2004 QuoteI sometimes get the feeling that there are far more life-threatening situations in some parts of the USA just because a large number of Americans are allowed to carry a gun. Well, you're close. But it's not because lots of them are allowed to carry guns. It's because a lot of people DO carry guns, even though they are not allowed to. You said earlier you were suprised that some Americans weren't allowed to carry. It's probably less than 1% (just a guesstimate) of the people carrying guns that are doing so legally, the rest are criminals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #27 January 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteSmall difference with getting killed by a car and getting killed by a gun is that guns are generally speaking of very little useful value, and can therefore be restricted in availability better than cars. Bzzzt! Wrong answer. Cars are not a constitutional right. Guns are. Whatever. I am IMO very glad guns are not a constitutional right here.. and you've made it very clear you don't agree.. that's your good right. As it is mine to disagree with you.. Like I said: no big deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #28 January 20, 2004 QuoteI sometimes get the feeling that there are far more life-threatening situations in some parts of the USA just because a large number of Americans are allowed to carry a gun. That may seem logical, but it is incorrect. Over the last ten years, a wave of state laws have been passed allowing citizens to carry concealed firearms. Something like 43 states now permit it. So according to your "feeling", gun crime should have risen dramatically with this trend. But guess what? Murder is down 42% over that same ten-year period. Your theory is bunk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #29 January 20, 2004 QuoteI don't mind NOT carrying a gun, since it makes it less likely that people around me carry a gun.. It's is absolutely NOT a restriction of my 'freedom' .. No, it makes it less likely that someone who won't shoot you in the first place will not have a gun. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #30 January 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteI sometimes get the feeling that there are far more life-threatening situations in some parts of the USA just because a large number of Americans are allowed to carry a gun. Well, you're close. But it's not because lots of them are allowed to carry guns. It's because a lot of people DO carry guns, even though they are not allowed to. You said earlier you were suprised that some Americans weren't allowed to carry. It's probably less than 1% (just a guesstimate) of the people carrying guns that are doing so legally, the rest are criminals. Let me try to refrase what I said.. maybe it's better to say that because there are so many people carrying guns, it is becoming less and less safe. That fact that a lot of people carry guns is mostly because they want to be able to defend themselves? Or want to feel safe? IMO that's a bit of reversed logic.. Thanks for the short debate though,, I'm off.. got to get up in a few hours.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #31 January 20, 2004 QuoteThat fact that a lot of people carry guns is mostly because they want to be able to defend themselves? Or want to feel safe? The fact is, most people carrying guns are doing so illegally because they're involved in criminal acts. Those of us who aren't criminals just want to have a fair chance against those who are and mean to do us harm. I'm not debating the legality of carrying guns, or why you should or shouldn't be allowed to. I'm just expressing my personal choice in the matter (luckily I have a choice). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #32 January 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteisn't this just THE reason to forbid any civilians to carry a gun? Do you want to live in a society where the government treats everyone like they are idiots who can't be trusted to act responsibly with freedom? Using this same logic, there should be no privately owned automobiles allowed, since 40,000 Americans per year die in traffic accidents with them. You better think hard about what you wish for. You might get it. Oh, and it is against the law in Pennsylvania to carry a gun in your car, unless you are licensed to do so. My bet is that this idiot didn't have a license. As a result of his action, he will lose his gun, serve some time in jail, and be prohibited from ever owning a gun again as long as he lives. The victim is just darned lucky the shooter was a bad shot. That .50 caliber handgun could have done him in. Yeah and in some states (Not sure any more) it used to be legal to carry a loaded weapon, in a holster, as long as it can be seen by 3(three) sides. If the guy would have been wearing a holster with the Desert Eagle in it, do you think there would have been an argument? Or would the guy with the club think hmmm, better not try to hit him with a club - And walk away. Two guys in the same argument - They both have guns - in holsters - seen from three sides - they stop arguing and start talking about theguns they own. Still no shots fired Make it illegal for someone to have a gun on them and they are forced to hide it - hence the guy with the club thinks he has a better advantage until the guy with the gun sets his stupid ass strait.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #33 January 20, 2004 It would appear that the victim did not get shot in the leg. It would appear that the intended victim of a clubbing was able to stop his attacker. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #34 January 20, 2004 >>I sometimes get the feeling that there are far more life-threatening situations in some parts of the USA just because a large number of Americans are allowed to carry a gun. << I suppose you would be talking about Washington, D.C., New York City, and Chicago? Those are all places where no one is allowed to carry a gun. They are not places where I would feel safe without mine. It is OK for me to carry my gun in Chattanooga, TN (my home town). I feel safe there without it. Hmmm.... ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #35 January 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteSmall difference with getting killed by a car and getting killed by a gun is that guns are generally speaking of very little useful value, and can therefore be restricted in availability better than cars. Bzzzt! Wrong answer. Cars are not a constitutional right. Guns are. Whatever. I am IMO very glad guns are not a constitutional right here.. and you've made it very clear you don't agree.. that's your good right. As it is mine to disagree with you.. Like I said: no big deal. The US Constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means, no more, and no less. All the lawyers and lobbyists for Handgun Control or the NRA don't change that. The Supreme Court has not overturned all gun control laws on Constitutional grounds, so presumably restrictions are OK.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #36 January 20, 2004 Quote>>I sometimes get the feeling that there are far more life-threatening situations in some parts of the USA just because a large number of Americans are allowed to carry a gun. << I suppose you would be talking about Washington, D.C., New York City, and Chicago? Those are all places where no one is allowed to carry a gun. They are not places where I would feel safe without mine. It is OK for me to carry my gun in Chattanooga, TN (my home town). I feel safe there without it. Hmmm.... And I feel perfectly safe in Chicago, and recently returned from NYC where I also felt safe. So what?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #37 January 20, 2004 >>The US Constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means, no more, and no less<< By tradition only. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #38 January 20, 2004 >>So what<< So I do not think that the lack of restrictions on my ability to defend myself in Chattanooga makes me more likely to encounter a life-threatening situation there. That was the argument to which I was responding. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #39 January 20, 2004 QuoteI am IMO very glad guns are not a constitutional right here.. Well, let's look at a comparison of the murder rate, per 100,000 citizens, between the U.S. and the Netherlands, where your profile says you are from. According to Interpol international crime statistics: United States: 5.6 Netherlands..: 10.9 Wow, look at that! Murder is twice as frequent in the Netherlands, where you say you are glad that people aren't allowed a right to own guns. Isn't that amazing! Perhaps you should be more afraid of your fellow citizens than you are... We're much more safe here in America, with all our guns. Source (pdf files): ">Interpol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #40 January 20, 2004 I feel safe, too, not because of a gun, but because statistically, it's not likely for me to be murdered. But, I like to be prepared just in case, and am glad that I have the choice to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #41 January 20, 2004 QuoteAnd I feel perfectly safe in Chicago, and recently returned from NYC where I also felt safe. So what? Those two cities are both in the top 10 list for the highest crime rates in America. So if you felt safe in those high-crime places, then you should feel safe everywhere in America. Therefore, why are you so worried about guns? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #42 January 20, 2004 Well....time to go. I'm going to walk past the site of the shooting and see if I can get on TV. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #43 January 21, 2004 I'm curious if the guy with the .50 DE would have been able to own one at all. The .50 is silly huge. Poor choice for self defense. Go Transit Police! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian84 0 #44 January 21, 2004 QuoteBzzzt! Wrong answer. Cars are not a constitutional right. Guns are. So because its in the constitution it must be right?? Why not have a referendum.........can that be done in the states? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #45 January 21, 2004 Yeah, Ian, the Constitution can be amended, but it hardly ever is cause it's a royal pain. The booze amendment was enacted and repealed, and then the voting age was lowered to 18 during the Vietnam Era, but the US Constitution is very resistant to manipulation. All the states have to agree on the changes. Did you ever see that red and blue map of the US in the 2000 election? Unlikely to see any nationwide agreement this generation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian84 0 #46 January 21, 2004 Quote the voting age was lowered to 18 So now all you have to do is work on the drinking age People say that they need a gun and they have the right to one and all the baddies got 'em. I say if you made having a handgun illegal and made possession incur severe penalties, a lot less criminals would be "packing". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #47 January 21, 2004 QuoteAaahh.. okay... I didn't know it was illegal to carry a gun for some Americans??? Honestly.. I'm not trying to start a beaten-to-death debate all over again.. Then learn a little before making assumptions."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #48 January 21, 2004 QuoteI sometimes get the feeling that there are far more life-threatening situations in some parts of the USA just because a large number of Americans are allowed to carry a gun. Maybe I am just lucky to not have been in a situation where I feel like I need a gun.. maybe just smart.. or maybe even not too hot-tempered to give a f*ck and don't start a fight or arguement I would suggest you get the facts first, feelings are not that rational. In regards to the "lucky or smart, maybe you are too young, and forgot that the worst wars, have been fought close to your home...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #49 January 21, 2004 Well, obviously in this forum there are many opinions and hence differences in those opinions. So, IMO, the gun control debate completely avoids the real issue.....crime. Personally, I have a Federal Firearms License (FFL), a concealed weapons license, a small business dealing in arms, and numerous weapons including, rifles, shotguns, pistols, muzzleloaders, etc. That all said, I rarely, rarely ever exercise my right to carry a concealed weapon. However, I very often carry loaded weapons in my vehicles and keep them in my home. Self-Defense......only partly. More because I really enjoy firearms, collecting, shooting, hunting, etc. It is a major part of my life. And......I expect as long as I prove I am a responsible gun owner and dealer that I should be allowed to continue......and I am. However, the problem society has is that individuals that have proven they are NOT responsible, often repeatedly, through commission of serious crimes, are turned back onto society with a slap on the wrist that hardly serves as any meaningful correction. Yes, they are often restricted from possessing firearms.....keep in mind they've already proven they DON"T CARE what they are restricted from doing. By restricting firearms you are punishing me......and NOT removing threats, because these criminals continue criminal activity.....they go get another gun anyway. My point.....finally......don't take away my freedom, lifestyle, my PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, to alleviate the problem. Remove the problem....those that have been proven unworthy with stricter and highly enforced punishment for crime. And finally...the next to the last thing in world that I want to do is kill another person and I seriously doubt it would ever come to that....however, the last thing in the world I want to do is die because I was a victim of a punk criminal. So, PLEASE, don't break in my house with violent intentions. Anyway, there you have it...my humble opinion. NathanBlues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BPO 0 #50 January 21, 2004 QuoteI would suggest you get the facts first, feelings are not that rational. FACT is that the pro-gun side has PROOF that guns don't attract violence... and the other side has PROOF that guns do attract violence.. the latter makes much more sense IMO. QuoteIn regards to the "lucky or smart, maybe you are too young, and forgot that the worst wars, have been fought close to your home.... You'd be amazed.. I know that sometimes the only way to change things is to fight.. and since the other side doesn't use sticks and stones anymore, we shouldn't be using sticks and stones to defend ourselves.. There is a difference between war and peace.. and fortunately when guns are needed to defend a country, guns are regularly used by individuals who are trained properly to use a gun. How come every time anyone offers a personal opinion on guns, the pro-gun side get aggressive/defensive.. could be because of the gun they carry? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
