Gear setup/checks to avoid horseshoe/pc in tow

[DocPop 1]

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Also, I see where the other posters are getting the idea of pulling their bridle... BG does that in the video to illustrate how it works, I highly doubt he would advise you to pull the bridle.

If you had sufficient altitude and made two attempts at the handle without success..., and could feel the bridle coming out boc it might be worth giving it one good yank before initiating EP's. (Again, given sufficient altitude)

I completely disagree.

The reason for rules like "try twice only and then go reserve" and hard decks is to avoid the temptation for "just one more try" because "I am almost there".

People have gone in like that. If you start dishing out advice like that you are putting people at risk. Particularly if you do it to people you don't know on the internet.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ridestrong 1]

No one was talking about pc in tow.

But I disagree with you.

>>"In a PC in tow, nobody has situational awareness, because the situation is behind them. "

You can still have situational awareness with a pc in tow, to say otherwise seems strange. I was taught that with a pc in tow, you can try adjusting your burble with rocking to right or left for example. If I notice a pc in tow above 3k I'm going to at least try changing my burble before I cutaway and hit silver at 2k.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ridestrong 1]

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Also, I see where the other posters are getting the idea of pulling their bridle... BG does that in the video to illustrate how it works, I highly doubt he would advise you to pull the bridle.

If you had sufficient altitude and made two attempts at the handle without success..., and could feel the bridle coming out boc it might be worth giving it one good yank before initiating EP's. (Again, given sufficient altitude)

I completely disagree.

The reason for rules like "try twice only and then go reserve" and hard decks is to avoid the temptation for "just one more try" because "I am almost there".

People have gone in like that. If you start dishing out advice like that you are putting people at risk. Particularly if you do it to people you don't know on the internet.

That's cool... I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm just saying that if I have SUFFICIENT ALTITUDE and my hand is already right there, I'm giving the bridle one good pull. If I'm at my hard deck then I'm not f'n around and I'm going silver.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Beatnik 2]

I agree with what you are saying except for this one statement:

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In a PC in tow, nobody has situational awareness, because the situation is behind them.

This is probably because the person that you are replying to wasn't using it right context with their mid-air rigging suggestion. But even if you can't see it directly doesn't mean you can't have situational awareness. Aircrew do it all the time by building mental pictures from radio communication.

If you are able to tell that you have a pilot chute in tow, you have situational awareness. Being able to tell exactly what is causing it would be determined with the level of SA you have. Which with this example, being able to identify you have a pilot chute in tow is more than enough SA and nothing more is required.

[popsjumper 2]

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i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex

BTW, thats not a premature deployment, thats an out of sequence deployment. (even if it is premature)

Semantics?

From SIM Cat A:
"1. Premature container opening in freefall (hand deployment
only):
a. Attempt to locate and deploy the pilot chute first
(no more than two attempts or two seconds,
whichever comes first).
b. If the pilot chute can’t be located after two tries or
if deploying the pilot chute results in a partial
malfunction, cut away and deploy the reserve."


Semantics?

From SIM Cat b:
"premature deployment (hand deploy)"




Besides, it falls under the realm of "Horseshoe" anyway.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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You can still have situational awareness with a pc in tow, to say otherwise seems strange. I was taught that with a pc in tow, you can try adjusting your burble with rocking to right or left for example. If I notice a pc in tow above 3k I'm going to at least try changing my burble before I cutaway and hit silver at 2k.

OMG
250 jumps?
Dude. I gotta hammer you on this.

That is NOT a PC in tow!
That is a pilot chute hesitation...a different animal entirely.

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That's cool... I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm just saying that if I have SUFFICIENT ALTITUDE and my hand is already right there, I'm giving the bridle one good pull. If I'm at my hard deck then I'm not f'n around and I'm going silver.

Go back and review your EPs. NOW!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ridestrong 1]

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No one was talking about pc in tow.

But I disagree with you.

>>"In a PC in tow, nobody has situational awareness, because the situation is behind them. "

You can still have situational awareness with a pc in tow, to say otherwise seems strange. I was taught that with a pc in tow, you can try adjusting your burble with rocking to right or left for example. If I notice a pc in tow above 3k I'm going to at least try changing my burble before I cutaway and hit silver at 2k.

OMG
250 jumps?
Dude. I gotta hammer you on this.

That is NOT a PC in tow!
That is a pilot chute hesitation...a different animal entirely.

Go back and review your EPs. NOW!

Technically it still could be a pc in tow, until (or if) it pulls the pin... then it would be labeled as a pc hesitation.

For someone that just went spouting off about semantics, I kinda thought you might have gathered the relative synonymity between the two.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[davelepka 4]

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But even if you can't see it directly doesn't mean you can't have situational awareness
If you are able to tell that you have a pilot chute in tow, you have situational awareness

True. I should have specified that you don't (and can't) have the level of situational awareness needed to make taking the time to pull on the bridle a good idea.

Since you don't know what's causing the PC in tow, taking the time to enact a 'possible' remedy is a bad idea. The 'sure thing' remedy of deploying your reserve is where you want to dedicate your quickly diminishing remaining time. If the PC in tow is 'unrecoverable', doing anything but dumping your reserve is a waste of time, and possibly the last mistake you'll ever make.

Even outside the possibilty of going in with nothing out, or a paritally inflated reserve, you're wasting time you could use to deal with any resultant problems from dumping your rserve with a PC in tow. Main/reserve PC entanglements, main/reserve canopy entaglements, two outs, downplanes, etc are all possibilities when you pull silver with your main still in the pack tray and PC swinging around at the end of the bridle.

As many Youtube videos have shown, truely horrific reserve deployment problems can and have been solved before impact, but it took time. Time you don't want to waste yanking on a lost casue (the bridle).

[dragon2 2]

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Technically it still could be a pc in tow, until (or if) it pulls the pin... then it would be labeled as a pc hesitation.

But this generally only happens with a) springloaded pilotchutes (were you taught on these? might explain your reasoning) or b) when wingsuiting.
On a regular skydive, with a regular rig, just cutaway the damn pcit quick or go straight to reserve, whichever you were taught/prefer. Don't fool around with a pcit.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[shah269 0]

1) I was taught to pack my PC using the B. Germain packing method.

2) If I had a PC issue, look left, look right, if nothing the go silver. Much like crossing the road. By looking over your left and right shoulders you are "moving" the burble. If there was an issue it should have cleared by then. If it hasn't then well it's plan B. Cut away, clear shoulders of the 3 rings and go silver.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[davelepka 4]

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Cut away, clear shoulders of the 3 rings and go silver

Your instructors taught you to cutaway, then manually release the three ring on each shoulder before pulling your reseve handle? All of this while still at terminal, afer you have pulled, determined there was not the desired response, and looked over each shoulder?

Have you mentally though throught the time line of what you're suggesting? I say it's 2 seconds before you realize there's a problem, then another 2 seconds (at best) for to check over each shoulder. Add 3 seconds to locate, pull and discard the cutaway handle, then at least three seconds per shoulder to clear the three rings. Add it all up, and that's 13 seconds from when you release your PC until you even start to look for your reserve handle. At terminal.

You're a smart guy, do the math and figure out how far you fall in 13 seconds, and subtract that from your pull altitude. Maybe add another 2 seconds to locate and pull your reserve handle. See where this is going?

[davelepka 4]

Here's a fun video of an intentional horseshoe malfunction. This clip begins with the cutaway handle already pulled, and the jumper beginning to manually release the risers and ultimately pulling silver.

Keep in mind that A) that's super-skydiver Billy Weber, who knew exactly what was going to happen, and what he was going to do, and B) in this instance, the main risers were already clear of the riser covers and standing free for easy grabbing. In the case of a PC in tow, the riser covers would be closed and the risers would be secure and laying flat against your shoulders.

Keep an eye on the altimeter for reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBzgMIdtJm0

[davelepka 4]

Just wanted to add, there is a distinct difference between a partial mal, where the canopy has left the bag, and a 'total' mal where the canopy has not left the bag, and that difference is speed.

You are still at full throttle freefall speed until the canopy comes out of the bag. Even a 'streamer' will slow you down considerably from freefall speeds. Not enough to survive, but maybe on the order of 15% or 25%, which gives you 15% or 25% more time to work. But when the canopy is still in the bag, you have no such luxury.

Keep in mind that you only discover a deployment problem AFTER you decieded it was time to deploy. You wanted the freefall to end at that time, but here you are still in freefall some seconds later.

Pulling the silver handle does not save your life, it just beings the process. You still have the possibility of a reserve PC hesitation (spring loaded, ya know), and all of the things that can wrong with a PC or d-bag swinging around behind you while deploying a reserve. Even once the canopy opens, you need time clear your brakes, set up for and exectue a landing. Preserve that time, and pull the handle ASAP.

[shah269 0]

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Your instructors taught you to cutaway, then manually release the three ring on each shoulder before pulling your reseve handle? All of this while still at terminal, afer you have pulled, determined there was not the desired response, and looked over each shoulder?

As I recall reading in the SIM and being told.
Look over your left shoulder, then your right.
So how fast is that?
Then cut away, and run your fingers so as to loosen the 3 rings. so that's just grab your shoulders and give them a good shake and then go silver.
So yeah 10+ seconds in all but the idea is to prevent the reserve and the main from becomming very close friends.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[thrillstalker 0]

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i meant a premature deployment, thanks andy.

if the container is open but the pilot chute is still in the boc spandex, it might (just maybe) be possible (if not easier) to find the bridal and try to get the pilot chute out before going silver.

i thought this was one of the main reasons for using the Germain method???

Mitch, talk to me when you get here. I did not teach you that and I'll want to know who did. There are some things you'll need to know.

BTW, it's bridle. I man it's not like we asking you to get married, right?

i misunderstood the video. i have rewatched it and i realize now that he was just using the bridle as an example.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[Beatnik 2]

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As I recall reading in the SIM and being told.

This is what the SIM (Section 5-1 Skydiving Emergencies) says:

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Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot- chute-in-tow malfunction is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main- reserve entanglement is slim, and valu- able time and altitude could be
lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.
Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve. Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy during or as a result of the reserve activation, a cut- away might be the best response in
some situations.

Maybe you should read the SIM again.

[NovaTTT 2]

Shah, you are getting some fucked up advice.

Seriously fucked up.

If you have a total malfunction there is no reason to do anything other than pull the reserve handle.

It's all about priorities, just like the Pull Priorities:

Pull
Pull at the right altitude
Pull stable


The advice you've been given is akin to telling a first jump student to get stable, no matter what, before pulling.

But that's not the priority. The priority is to pull. That means your main or your reserve.

After you pull the reserve handle you can deal with any nuisance occurances, difficulties, problems or malfunctions that happen, but you're going to have a hell of a lot more time to deal with them under a parachute than you are at terminal velocity.

Get that fucked up EP out of your mind - wash it out with lots of practice and visualization of correct EPs. Read your SIM and talk about it with an Instructor.

Blues.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[thrillstalker 0]

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As I recall reading in the SIM and being told.

This is what the SIM (Section 5-1 Skydiving Emergencies) says:

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Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot- chute-in-tow malfunction is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main- reserve entanglement is slim, and valu- able time and altitude could be
lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.
Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve. Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy during or as a result of the reserve activation, a cut- away might be the best response in
some situations.

Maybe you should read the SIM again.

what are some pros and cons for the two different ways?

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[davelepka 4]

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Look over your left shoulder, then your right.
So how fast is that?

It's never as fast as you think it's going to be. You'll be confused at first, then you have to identify both the problem and the solution, and then take action.

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So yeah 10+ seconds in all but the idea is to prevent the reserve and the main from becomming very close friends

First of all, ten seconds is being generous. Keep in mind that you'll be in a high stress situation, and probably going head low from reaching for your handles or even your three rings. You can't plan for the 'best case scenario' in terms of your reaction times, the malfunction itself is proof that shit happens.

Beyond that, I would much rather have a two-out with the option to cutaway, then have my main leave in the direction of my reserve whenever it feels like.

You can land a side by side or a biplane, and if they downplane you can cutaway the main without it going past the reserve. Two canopies deploying next to each other isn't that bad. There are no 'loose ends' swinging around, it's two closed loops bouncing off of each other.

Having a main cutaway past the reserve is another story. You open one of the loops by cutting away, and now the ends of that loop (the risers) are free to wrap around anythying they want.

Pull the reserve first, and worry about the main second. If they deploy at the same time, manage the two-out and deal with what it becomes. If the main stays put or partially deploys (still in the bag) through the reserve deployment, then pull the cutaway and clear the three rings then.

The differences are twofold, and very significant. By getting the reserve out first, you stop the freefall and literally create time for yourself to work with. By deploying the reserve before pulling the cutaway, you retain control over the actions of your main canopy at all times. If you later find you want it gone, cutaway then. But to cutaway and then go through the reserve deployment process with the main 'unhinged' leaves the door open for it to depart at a 'less then favorable' time.

Stop the freefall, and maintain control over the situation. Really.

[in2jumping 0]

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Your instructors taught you to cutaway, then manually release the three ring on each shoulder before pulling your reseve handle? All of this while still at terminal, afer you have pulled, determined there was not the desired response, and looked over each shoulder?

As I recall reading in the SIM and being told.
Look over your left shoulder, then your right.
So how fast is that?
Then cut away, and run your fingers so as to loosen the 3 rings. so that's just grab your shoulders and give them a good shake and then go silver.
So yeah 10+ seconds in all but the idea is to prevent the reserve and the main from becomming very close friends.

• Pull at 3000’ have a PCIT.
• A good 3 seconds to realize you have a PCIT by looking over your shoulders, now at 2500 with nothing out.
• Go to emergency procedures and start cutaway, another good 3 to 4 seconds to cutaway and now below 2000’.
• Grad and clear/loosen your 3 rings another good 3 to 4 seconds, now humming through 1500’ with nothing out.
• Pull reserve another 3 seconds and humming through 1000’.

This is if everything goes well. You will be fscked if say your velcro on your cut away handle is really tight and takes 2 or 3 more seconds to cutaway or maybe your finger gets caught in a one of the 3 rings as your wasting your time fscking with them.

[captain1976 0]

Ask your instructor to show you how to inspect the closing loop tension, this is probably the number one thing to prevent a horseshoe.

[ridestrong 1]

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• Pull at 3000’ have a PCIT.
• A good 3 seconds to realize you have a PCIT by looking over your shoulders, now at 2500 with nothing out.
• Go to emergency procedures and start cutaway, another good 3 to 4 seconds to cutaway and now below 2000’.
• Grad and clear/loosen your 3 rings another good 3 to 4 seconds, now humming through 1500’ with nothing out.
• Pull reserve another 3 seconds and humming through 1000’.

This is if everything goes well. You will be fscked if say your velcro on your cut away handle is really tight and takes 2 or 3 more seconds to cutaway or maybe your finger gets caught in a one of the 3 rings as your wasting your time fscking with them.

Hahaha that was pretty funny, especially the velcro handle part!

ok... I'm just f'n with you. But you gotta admit those times are laughably exaggerated.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[davelepka 4]

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But you gotta admit those times are laughably exaggerated.

Based on what? Your extensive experience actually pulling your handles in actual emergencies?

AFF FJC course students are taught to pull, and practice with real handles in a training vest ad nauseum. A student isn't allowed to jump unless they can demostrate the pull procedure on the ground smoothly and without fail. Despite this, many of them are anything but smooth and easy when it comes to pulling an actual handle on an actual skydive.

The times listed are very conservative, and that's the sort of numbers you should be using when evaluating your hard decks and EPs. If you are quick on the draw, good for you, you'll be open higher than everyone else. If it turns out you're not that quick or you run into a snag, you're not going to go in for cutting it too close.

It's not a good idea to build a plan around you being able to do anything in less than 2 seconds or risk going in with nothing out.

[ridestrong 1]

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But you gotta admit those times are laughably exaggerated.

Based on what? Your extensive experience actually pulling your handles in actual emergencies?

I'm looking at simply the sheer action performed... not including the analysis, thought process, hesitation, etc...

Let's just take these 3 phrases out:

1 "good 3 to 4 seconds to cutaway..."
2. "Pull reserve another 3 seconds..."
"This is if everything goes well."
3. "if say your velcro on your cut away handle is really tight and takes 2 or 3 more seconds to cutaway"

So, just looking at the action... 6 or 7 seconds just to pull 2 handles... "if everything goes well." Yeah, exaggerated.

and if your velcro causes you to need up to 3 more extra seconds to pull your cutaway then: a) your as weak as a 2yo. or b) you should replace with normal velcro.

So---> in all, possibly 10 whole seconds just to pull 2 handles. Exaggerated!


Now if you want to add in analysis, thought process, hesitation, management, etc... then, yeah I agree 10 sec is a reasonable number, but not on simply the action alone. (except in the case of a total mal or pcit which is primarily what we have been talking about.)

If he was in fact talking about a pcit then I think his numbers are completely f'n ridiculous.

ETA: he was talking about a pcit.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[in2jumping 0]

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I'm looking at simply the sheer action performed... not including the analysis, thought process, hesitation, etc...

So there is no thought process or analysis at all in the actions of pulling your handles?

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Let's just take these 3 phrases out:

1 "good 3 to 4 seconds to cutaway..."
2. "Pull reserve another 3 seconds..."
"This is if everything goes well."
3. "if say your velcro on your cut away handle is really tight and takes 2 or 3 more seconds to cutaway"

So, just looking at the action... 6 or 7 seconds just to pull 2 handles... "if everything goes well." Yeah, exaggerated.

6 second is not exaggerated what so ever.
Cutaway:
1 second to think cutaway
1 second to grab handle
1 second to peal and pull and clear cables
(ya you might be able to do this in 2 seconds, but how often do you practice cutting away belly to earth at 2500'?)
Reserve:
1 second to think pull reserve
1 second to grab handle
1 second to pull and clear cable
(again might be able to do this in 2 seconds but then again how often to you practice this at 2000' belly to earth??)

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and if your velcro causes you to need up to 3 more extra seconds to pull your cutaway then: a) your as weak as a 2yo. or b) you should replace with normal velcro.

Have you every jumped a new rig with really strong velcro on the cutaway handle, which required a strong peel to free it? Also you realize that cutting away belly to earth, your cutaway handle is going to be tight up against your body and not out free like when your under canopy and your harness is under tension?

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So---> in all, possibly 10 whole seconds just to pull 2 handles. Exaggerated!

Look at your math its 6 to 7 seconds for pulling the handles not 10. But you can say 10 seconds all together if you factor in the 3 to 4 seconds its going to take to realize you have a PCIT!! You are going to throw out you PC give it a couple seconds then wonder what the fsck is going on look over you shoulders and realize its a PCIT, this is going to take 3 to 4 seconds!!

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Now if you want to add in analysis, thought process, hesitation, management, etc... then, yeah I agree 10 sec is a reasonable number, but not on simply the action alone. (except in the case of a total mal or pcit which is primarily what we have been talking about.)

DUH! The analysis and thought process was factored in times and assumed in my original post. Malfunctions are going to happen at times you are not expecting them and not when you are sitting in you living room typing on you computer thinking about them.

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If he was in fact talking about a pcit then I think his numbers are completely f'n ridiculous.

ETA: he was talking about a pcit.

No they are not ridiculous, 10+ seconds to reconginze you have a PCIT and pull both handles is a very real number.