Argus manual update

[Deyan 36]

Now we have to change the batteries at each repack, 500 jumps, after activation or "batt low" on the display.

"The batteries are to be replaced at each repack of the reserve parachute, after each activation, every
500 jumps, or when the Argus displays «Bat Low», which ever comes first." (page 9 )

I'm sure that they have their own reasons for that. I just wanted to point this out to the riggers who are going to pack reserves with Argus AAD.
As a user I was just thinking about the end price of the unit over the time frame of let say....12,5 years.
This is going to be way more expensive than Cypres 2.
In the best case scenario,this will be 24 times(if you never chop) the price of the new batteries. The cheapest battery I found around is 7 euro. And I need two.
Don't be surprised that my 2 AAD's are now in the classified section

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[dragon2 2]

Um, you should go look in photo shops EUR 4,95/each or box of 10pc for EUR 29,00 (that's without searching for the cheapest, just the nearest big photo shop to Teuge). I'm sure I've seen them cheaper than EUR 4,95/each too, maybe at the Mediamarkt?

Edited: EUR 2,95/each at another big photo shop I periodically visit

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[riggerpaul 1]

  Quote

Now we have to change the batteries at each repack, 500 jumps, after activation or "batt low" on the display.

"The batteries are to be replaced at each repack of the reserve parachute, after each activation, every
500 jumps, or when the Argus displays «Bat Low», which ever comes first." (page 9 )

I'm sure that they have their own reasons for that. I just wanted to point this out to the riggers who are going to pack reserves with Argus AAD.
As a user I was just thinking about the end price of the unit over the time frame of let say....12,5 years.
This is going to be way more expensive than Cypres 2.
In the best case scenario,this will be 24 times(if you never chop) the price of the new batteries. The cheapest battery I found around is 7 euro. And I need two.
Don't be surprised that my 2 AAD's are now in the classified section

Blue skies

I'd really like Aviacom to make these new things clear.

The email I got said they "recommend" battery change at each repack.

As you point out, the User Manual Sec 2.2 says "are to be replaced".

The same manual, in the Sec 2.6 "Specifications", says annual battery replacement.

The Installation Manual, Sec 5.1 says annual replacement.

I sent them an email asking about these things, and haven't gotten a response.

I sent the email again a few moments ago.

[koppel 4]

  Quote

Now we have to change the batteries at each repack, 500 jumps, after activation or "batt low" on the display

500 jumps? just like another well known brand.

Batt low? well that just speaks for itself. I have seen all brands give a low battery warning after just a few jumps. Sometimes batteries are not stored well and the AAD manufacturer can't control these things

each repack? well from the number of units I see that people have failed to follow the annual change I can see why they would prefer each re-pack.

Cost? well I can't speak for other countries but here in Australia where things are more expensive quite often I can replace the batteries in an Argus during its service cycle for the same costs or even a little less as it would be for a Vigil or a Cypres1 so I don't see any real issue there. I also don't have to tie up as much money in stock as I do with Vigil or C1 power units if I want to stock them for my customers.

Bottom line is that AAD's cost money, they cost money to run and the sport aint free, but the costs are reasonable for the return with all the brands when you consider the alternatives

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[Deyan 36]

  Quote

500 jumps? just like another well known brand.

The one not in production since march 2003?

***Batt low? well that just speaks for itself. I have seen all brands give a low battery warning after just a few jumps. Sometimes batteries are not stored well and the AAD manufacturer can't control these things***

100% agree with you

***each repack? well from the number of units I see that people have failed to follow the annual change I can see why they would prefer each re-pack.***

The people failed to follow the year replacement will fail the repack cycle as well.
I can't see how it's possible for somebody in Spain( I think that they are on 1 year repack cycle) to replace his batteries once a year and still make 499 jumps,but for somebody who just had his repack done a week ago and only 5 jumps after,he now will have to pay again for batteries replacement. Doesn't make any sense does it?

***Cost? well I can't speak for other countries but here in Australia where things are more expensive quite often I can replace the batteries in an Argus during its service cycle for the same costs or even a little less as it would be for a Vigil or a Cypres1 so I don't see any real issue there. I also don't have to tie up as much money in stock as I do with Vigil or C1 power units if I want to stock them for my customers.***

Again I agree with you. Having Argus batt in stock is easier than having Cypres 1's or Vigil's batt.

I don't want to go into another discussion which AAD is best and why. I'm just pointing out that there's a manual update.
Yes,I'm not happy with it,but the live is not perfect


Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[koppel 4]

  Quote

I don't want to go into another discussion which AAD is best and why. I'm just pointing out that there's a manual update.

Good points. Maybe there should be a SB promulgated when a manual is updated for any manufacturer?

It is the responsibility of the Rigger to check these things but it is not always obvious the changes that have been made.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[riggerpaul 1]

The online documentation has been updated and verified.

Aviacom now REQUIRES battery replacement at EVERY REPACK, including a repack after an activation, or every 500 jumps, whichever comes first.

[Fab 0]

Well...I have an argus and uptill now I didn''t have any trouble jumping it.

I don't see any logic behind this requirement. I would very much like to know the reason behind this. First thing that comes to my mind is that aviacom is afraid the charge might not be sufficient to fully cut the loop while the display still says 'battery ok".

I'm losing my confidence in this product

edited to add:

I also send them an email concerning the cutter replacement..never heard from them also....

_______________________________________

[BrianM 1]

  Quote

I don't see any logic behind this requirement.

Me neither. I have no problem with mandating time-based battery replacement, but repacks is not a measure of time. It makes no sense at all.

You could have a mal on the first jump after a repack. Do I really need to replace batteries that were installed a few hours ago and used for one jump? Mfg says I do!

Even without mals, repack cycles vary significantly by country. The act of repacking the reserve obviously doesn't affect the battery, so if I find out which country has the longest repack cycle and use that as the battery replacement period, the battery should still have sufficient charge to operate the AAD, right? It's either that, or people in countries with longer pack cycles are being put at risk!

Edit to add: I know there are countries with a one year cycle - same as the previous Argus battery replacement period. Does anyone know if any countries have cycles longer than a year? If so, that will result in batteries being changed less often.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[theonlyski 8]

  Quote

You could have a mal on the first jump after a repack. Do I really need to replace batteries that were installed a few hours ago and used for one jump? Mfg says I do!

Just wait till some poor unfortunate rigger candidate starts doing his reserve packjobs on a rig that has an Argus in it...

Bet they get to know the guys at the local photo shop pretty well.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Deyan 36]

  Quote

You could have a mal on the first jump after a repack. Do I really need to replace batteries that were installed a few hours ago and used for one jump? Mfg says I do!

This is exactly my point. But if the manufacturer say so,we better follow .Otherwise like riggerrob is saying we gonna stand alone in the court

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[NovaTTT 2]

Page from the revised Argus Installation Manual

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[TrojanHorse 0]

Why the change in policy?
When we receive Argus back for the 4 year service we find regularly units with batteries overdue for replacement as much as up to three (3!) years.

This on a realtively small number of units serviced this is alarming.

Also Multiple life saves on one AAD will drain the battery faster and multiple life saves on one unit without battery replacement has occurred.

In order to make sure that the Argus AAD is ready when needed we decided that batteries have to be replaced at each repack cycle disregarding the repack cycle in your country.

By our knowledge is the longest repack cycle set at one year.

If you have any further questions about this, please don’t hesitate to contact us

William
Argus
info@aviacom.com

[theonlyski 8]

  Quote

In order to make sure that the Argus AAD is ready when needed we decided that batteries have to be replaced at each repack cycle disregarding the repack cycle in your country.

By our knowledge is the longest repack cycle set at one year.

US FAA Part 105.43c states:

  Quote

If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.

So, its ok to change them every year, but for us in the US, we have to change them atleast twice a year, just because our repack cycle is 180 days?

Why not leave the battery changes at once a year, for everyone, and take formal action against any rigger thats packing the AAD without following your recomendations (which is illegal in the US), with the caveat that if there is a activation, the batteries must be replaced during the next repack, along with the cutter?

I just purchased an Argus, and I am trying to decide if it's worth installing in my rig, seeing as I will have to change the batteries litterally every time I repack it.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[riggerpaul 1]

  Quote

Why the change in policy?
When we receive Argus back for the 4 year service we find regularly units with batteries overdue for replacement as much as up to three (3!) years.

This on a realtively small number of units serviced this is alarming.

Also Multiple life saves on one AAD will drain the battery faster and multiple life saves on one unit without battery replacement has occurred.

In order to make sure that the Argus AAD is ready when needed we decided that batteries have to be replaced at each repack cycle disregarding the repack cycle in your country.

By our knowledge is the longest repack cycle set at one year.

If you have any further questions about this, please don’t hesitate to contact us

William
Argus
info@aviacom.com

Your rule change will only affect the people who were following the rules in the first place.

It will not make the riggers who didn't care to follow the old rule any better at following the new rule.

Riggers who are conscientious are already changing the batteries at the proper time.

Riggers who don't care enough will not be changed by changing the rule.


Also, just wondering - were the units that came back with long overdue batteries actually being jumped? If they were sitting on the closet floor waiting for a new owner to buy them and put them into service, the battery "problem" could be a non-issue. Sure, batteries should be removed during long periods of storage, but that's not the point of your rule change, is it?

[wdriessens 0]

The unit that came in with a 3 year overdue batteries had logged 121 jumps.

[riggerpaul 1]

  Quote

The unit that came in with a 3 year overdue batteries had logged 121 jumps.

Can you tell that these jumps were after the batteries were overdue?

[wdriessens 0]

When this Unit was manufactured, it was fitted with "Black Argus" batteries.

When Units come in for inspections, different data's are downloaded.

One file showed a very long time of use between exchange of batteries.
And the ultimate proof came by opening the batteries compartment for installing new batteries when we discovered those 2 "Black Argus" batteries.

[billvon 3,067]

I'd strongly recommend buying batteries from a supplier that has a good quality control chain, so you can ensure the batteries haven't been sitting in a shipping container in a yard in Arizona for a year (for example.) Most retail electronics stores do not.

[riggerpaul 1]

  Quote

When this Unit was manufactured, it was fitted with "Black Argus" batteries.

When Units come in for inspections, different data's are downloaded.

One file showed a very long time of use between exchange of batteries.
And the ultimate proof came by opening the batteries compartment for installing new batteries when we discovered those 2 "Black Argus" batteries.

Okay, thanks for the information.

If the battery rule had been "every repack" back when this unit was manufactured, do you think that the story would have been any different?

If a rigger actually saw this unit in a rig, he did not care to change the batteries, even though they were due.

If the owner was pencil-packing the rig, he would not change the batteries.

In either case, do you think that the new rule will change anything?

Again, the only people this will affect are the people who are already doing it right.

It isn't going to change the people who don't care about the rules in the first place.

So what is the REAL point of the rule change now?

[billvon 3,067]

Manufacturers should publish maintenance procedures that give their devices the best chance of working correctly. Some users may indeed ignore the procedures. However, since riggers currently maintain AAD's, and very few ignore the maintenance requirements on other AAD's, I have a feeling that most people will follow the procedures outlined in the manual.

>Again, the only people this will affect are the people who are already
>doing it right.

No. Previously, a conscientious rigger was allowed to leave the old batteries in the AAD. Now they must be changed at every repack. That's a definite change.

[billvon 3,067]

>And the ultimate proof came by opening the batteries compartment for
>installing new batteries when we discovered those 2 "Black Argus"
>batteries.

And if you think that's scary - we've seen at least one incident where we found one black battery and one newer battery. We hypothesize that the user saw the battery warning, changed one battery, did not see the warning any more, and thought the problem was solved.

[riggerpaul 1]

  Quote

Manufacturers should publish maintenance procedures that give their devices the best chance of working correctly. Some users may indeed ignore the procedures. However, since riggers currently maintain AAD's, and very few ignore the maintenance requirements on other AAD's, I have a feeling that most people will follow the procedures outlined in the manual.

>Again, the only people this will affect are the people who are already
>doing it right.

No. Previously, a conscientious rigger was allowed to leave the old batteries in the AAD. Now they must be changed at every repack. That's a definite change.

Were the rigger conscientious, then he would have changed the battery when there was no evidence that the battery was not over the 1 year limit.

Continued failure to replace the battery is not the mark of a conscientious rigger.

Much of Europe has a 1 year repack now, and that would already carry with it the requirement to replace the batteries at each repack.

As Aviacom is reporting that they are finding units with 3 year old batteries in for service, I must conclude that at least some of these units came from countries that already had a 1 year cycle, and therefore already had a requirement to replace the batteries at each repack.

With this in mind, why would you expect this new rule to make anything better?

Riggers who were careful were already careful. Riggers who are not will continue to not be careful.

All it does is increase the cost for people who had good riggers in the first place.

Oh yes, in that it also increases the handling, it also increases the risk of damage to the unit.

[billvon 3,067]

>With this in mind, why would you expect this new rule to make
>anything better?

"Better?" It will ensure batteries are changed more often overall, and thus the average age of Argus batteries will decline. The manufacturer determines whether or not that is needed - and they have.

>Oh yes, in that it also increases the handling, it also increases the risk of
>damage to the unit.

So does repacking a reserve, opening flaps to inspect reserve pins and getting gear checks.

[riggerpaul 1]

  Quote

>And the ultimate proof came by opening the batteries compartment for
>installing new batteries when we discovered those 2 "Black Argus"
>batteries.

And if you think that's scary - we've seen at least one incident where we found one black battery and one newer battery. We hypothesize that the user saw the battery warning, changed one battery, did not see the warning any more, and thought the problem was solved.

That my be your hypothesis, but I have received at least one new Argus that came direct from Aviacom, that had mixed batteries.

Regardless of the source of the mixed battery or black battery situation, don't you think that the unit was passing self-test with that battery configuration?

Regardless of battery age and rigger conscientiousness, wouldn't the owner be looking at the self-test results when he turned it on?

If it passed self-test, then we have all been told that sufficient battery remains for the entire day.

So, all this talk of what has been found in service is irrelevant, isn't it?

The more discussion I hear about it, the more I wonder if there isn't something fishy going in in Denmark, as the saying goes.

Please be aware, I am not one of the people wishing to bash Argus. I have had an Argus for 4 years now. I have helped to sell many many Argus AADs to people in NorCal. My worries have not come lightly. I would love for my worries to be baseless.

But until I hear something that makes some sense, my fears and suspicions cannot help but grow.