Argus manual update

[riggerpaul 1]

Aviacom, please tell us.

Did any of the units with very old batteries come from countries where the repack cycle was already 1 year?

If so, didn't those riggers already have a requirement to replace the batteries at every repack?

If the "every repack" rule didn't stop them there, why do you expect it will stop anyone else?

[billvon 3,063]

>Regardless of battery age and rigger conscientiousness, wouldn't
>the owner be looking at the self-test results when he turned it on?

Yes. But self test cannot catch all errors. BIST in any device can detect only a small subset of errors in any device. It cannot (for example) detect when bypass capacitors have failed, and cannot generally detect a large battery disparity provided the overall voltage is correct. Thus, while self test is a useful feature that can increase reliability overall, it is not a guarantee of correct operation. (Which is why some AAD manufacturers require regular inspections as well as a successful BIST before the unit is considered properly maintained.)

>So, all this talk of what has been found in service is irrelevant, isn't it?

If you don't care what the remedy is for fixing problems that were found in service - yes, it is irrelevant.

[riggerpaul 1]

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>Regardless of battery age and rigger conscientiousness, wouldn't
>the owner be looking at the self-test results when he turned it on?

Yes. But self test cannot catch all errors. BIST in any device can detect only a small subset of errors in any device. It cannot (for example) detect when bypass capacitors have failed, and cannot generally detect a large battery disparity provided the overall voltage is correct. Thus, while self test is a useful feature that can increase reliability overall, it is not a guarantee of correct operation. (Which is why some AAD manufacturers require regular inspections as well as a successful BIST before the unit is considered properly maintained.)

>So, all this talk of what has been found in service is irrelevant, isn't it?

If you don't care what the remedy is for fixing problems that were found in service - yes, it is irrelevant.

Please, Bill, don't lower yourself to such an argument - "If you don't care...". You are better than that.

This isn't about fixing problems found in service. This is about a weak explanation for a significant change in their policy.

Rules don't make good riggers. More rules don't make bad riggers any better.

Let's see if I get any answer from Aviacom to the question of if these rigs came from places that had a 1 year repack, and therefore, already have the requirement to replace the battery at every repack (or nearly so).

If you'd like to discuss something else about the new rule, let's go there while we wait.

As written now "every repack" means that a swoop rig that goes into the pond the day after its repack gets a new battery. (Presuming, of course, that such a rig gets dried properly in the first place.)

Is that really necessary?

[riggerpaul 1]

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Yes. But self test cannot catch all errors. BIST in any device can detect only a small subset of errors in any device. It cannot (for example) detect when bypass capacitors have failed, and cannot generally detect a large battery disparity provided the overall voltage is correct. Thus, while self test is a useful feature that can increase reliability overall, it is not a guarantee of correct operation. (Which is why some AAD manufacturers require regular inspections as well as a successful BIST before the unit is considered properly maintained.)

When I read the Argus manual, I see that the battery test "Will check if the battery will to be able to handle at least 14 more hours of operation. If not, an error message will be displayed and/or the Argus will switch off. "

If this is a true statement, then wouldn't there have to be some sort of load test on the battery, as opposed to just a float voltage check?

Or are you saying that the self-test really doesn't do much for us at all?

To be clear, I have always been in favor of regular maintenance for AADs. I have enough experience in electrical engineering to know that components age and fail, especially in the sorts of environments where an AAD lives.

So, presuming that the maintenance has been done according to the schedule, and all was found in nominal condition, what is the overall value of the self-test that all the AADs go through?

[billvon 3,063]

>Please, Bill, don't lower yourself to such an argument . ..

If you really, honestly think that what is found in the field is irrelevant to AAD maintenance procedures, then that's the level of argument you are having. That's an absurd position. AAD's (really any skydiving equipment) has to operate well in the field, not just on a test bench. So what happens in the field is absolutely relevant to how maintenance is specified. Indeed, field usage (faster/smaller canopies, usage in pressurizable aircraft, water landings, packing procedures) are the #1 reason we've seen changes in AAD manuals and even AAD designs.

>As written now "every repack" means that a swoop rig that goes into the
>pond the day after its repack gets a new battery. (Presuming, of course,
>that such a rig gets dried properly in the first place.)
>Is that really necessary?

It might well be.

[billvon 3,063]

>"Will check if the battery will to be able to handle at least 14 more
>hours of operation. If not, an error message will be displayed and/or the
>Argus will switch off.

>If this is a true statement, then wouldn't there have to be some sort of
>load test on the battery, as opposed to just a float voltage check?

Usually you don't need a significant load to test a primary lithium battery PROVIDED both cells are in similar condition. Open circuit voltage is a pretty good indicator of remaining capacity, since the discharge curve is very flat down to about 20% capacity. (Of course I don't know what Argus is assuming for the purposes of their test.)

>Or are you saying that the self-test really doesn't do much for us at all?

Again, I have no idea what Argus does. One might guess that they check cutter continuity, sensor function (i.e. look for railed inputs) software integrity (FLASH checksum, RAM self test) and battery capacity (OCV perhaps with temperature compensation.) Knowing that your cutter is connected correctly is a good bit of info to have, for example.

[riggerrob 643]

On a practical note: the 180 day repack cycle means that most Canadian skydivers get their reserve repacked once a year - in the springtime - so replacing $25 batteries once a year is no big deal.

[riggerpaul 1]

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>Please, Bill, don't lower yourself to such an argument . ..

If you really, honestly think that what is found in the field is irrelevant to AAD maintenance procedures, then that's the level of argument you are having. That's an absurd position. AAD's (really any skydiving equipment) has to operate well in the field, not just on a test bench. So what happens in the field is absolutely relevant to how maintenance is specified. Indeed, field usage (faster/smaller canopies, usage in pressurizable aircraft, water landings, packing procedures) are the #1 reason we've seen changes in AAD manuals and even AAD designs.

>As written now "every repack" means that a swoop rig that goes into the
>pond the day after its repack gets a new battery. (Presuming, of course,
>that such a rig gets dried properly in the first place.)
>Is that really necessary?

It might well be.

Don't put words in my mouth. And don't try to shift the discussion out of the already established context.

I never said that what was found was irrelevant.

I said that finding old batteries at service time was irrelevant to the discussion of replacing the battery at every possible opportunity.

If you didn't get that from what I wrote, I gladly apologize. I will try harder to be more clear.

Aviacom tells us that if the unit powers on and passes self-test, the batteries are good for the rest of the day.

I must assume that people aren't jumping the rigs with "BAT LOW" in the display.

So the fact that they found old batteries when the units came in for service is not sufficient reason to make us change the batteries even more often than before.

If annual battery replacement is acceptable for the folks with an annual repack, annual battery replacement should be acceptable for the folks who have a 180 day repack.

That's the discussion. Let's try to stick to that.

Changing the rule is not going to make poor riggers do better.

What should be done is to get owners to be sure to understand what their equipment requires, and for the owners to insist that riggers meet the established standards.

Either that, or take the whole thing out of the hands of the riggers and owners, the way Airtec has made a power supply that will last the entire maintenance cycle.

If you cannot trust the riggers, and you cannot educate the riggers, then take the responsibility out of the hands of those riggers.

If telling them to change the batteries on the proper schedule is not going to get the job done, telling them to change the batteries even more often will not get the job done any better.

[pchapman 279]

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The manufacturer determines whether or not that is needed - and they have.

They SAY it is needed, but they haven't showed us whether or not it IS needed. The stated reason is suspect, and one might also suspect unstated reasons.

But you have a point about reducing the number of repacks that happen without a required replacement.

Some may just ignore the new rules; Argus will have failed to fix that and just annoy conscientious jumpers & riggers.

But the new rule will catch the 'casual mistakes'. I.e., where the rigger asks the jumper, "You need a new battery or anything?" and the jumper says, "No, it's good." and the rigger (sloppily) relies on his word.

Now, anytime you see an Argus, stick a new battery in it...

[billvon 3,063]

>They SAY it is needed, but they haven't showed us whether or not it
>IS needed.

Well, but that's like saying that PD _says_ their reserves last only 40 jumps or 25 deployments before they have to go back, but haven't proved that your reserve will fail right after that, so maybe it's not needed. They don't really have to prove that it will have problems - they have to come up with the maintenance/lifetime/operating procedures that their products will be used under using their best judgment.

>Now, anytime you see an Argus, stick a new battery in it.

Yep. That will probably be the biggest effect overall - simplification of maintenance procedures. No need to determine when the last battery change was.

[NovaTTT 2]

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Now, anytime you see an Argus, stick a new battery in it...

Maybe Aviacom bought into the lithium battery market!

I don't expect to see an Argus in my loft, but if I do, I'll put new batteries in because it's the mfgr's instruction, but I wonder what is behind the change. The response from TrojanHorse doesn't make me feel better about it because it addresses what I feel is a rigger issue, not an AAD issue.

Perhaps there is more behind this than has been disclosed, perhaps not, but it's a big change to make over what seems to be a small issue.

.02


Edit to remove the word "has"

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[riggerpaul 1]

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>They SAY it is needed, but they haven't showed us whether or not it
>IS needed.

Well, but that's like saying that PD _says_ their reserves last only 40 jumps or 25 deployments before they have to go back, but haven't proved that your reserve will fail right after that, so maybe it's not needed. They don't really have to prove that it will have problems - they have to come up with the maintenance/lifetime/operating procedures that their products will be used under using their best judgment.

>Now, anytime you see an Argus, stick a new battery in it.

Yep. That will probably be the biggest effect overall - simplification of maintenance procedures. No need to determine when the last battery change was.

Actually, they didn't say is was NEEDED, since they didn't tell the people with a 1 year cycle to change batteries any more often.

If the jumpers with annual repacks aren't in jeopardy because their batteries are 1 year old, neither would we be.

What they said is that, since some riggers don't seem to care, all jumpers with a less-than-annual repack should be forced to buy batteries that they likely don't actually need.

[riggerpaul 1]

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Maybe Aviacom bought into the lithium battery market!

Or maybe some people will say this change makes sense, since they actually favor other AADs, and have no problem with a change that makes the Argus less attractive.

[spootch 0]

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Again, I have no idea what Argus does. One might guess that they check cutter continuity, sensor function (i.e. look for railed inputs) software integrity (FLASH checksum, RAM self test) and battery capacity (OCV perhaps with temperature compensation.) Knowing that your cutter is connected correctly is a good bit of info to have, for example.

[Fab 0]

On their website.....lifetime of battery...AT LEAST one year an a standard battery..

http://www.argus-aad.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:nice-idea-whats-the-battery-life&catid=7:maintenance&Itemid=32

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[riggerrob 643]

"

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...
But the new rule will catch the 'casual mistakes'. I.e., where the rigger asks the jumper, "You need a new battery or anything?" and the jumper says, "No, it's good." and the rigger (sloppily) relies on his word...

"

......................................................................

That implies a sloppy rigger (not deserving of the certificate).
Any time there is a business transaction between an amateur (skydiver) and a professional (rigger) the onus is on the professional to ensure that the transaction is legitimate. The transaction can only be legitimate if batteries are replaced on the manufacturer's schedule.

Why are we wasting so much time arguing over $25 batteries?

• Quote

[riggerpaul 1]

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That implies a sloppy rigger (not deserving of the certificate).
Any time there is a business transaction between an amateur (skydiver) and a professional (rigger) the onus is on the professional to ensure that the transaction is legitimate. The transaction can only be legitimate if batteries are replaced on the manufacturer's schedule.

Why are we wasting so much time arguing over $25 batteries?

At some level, we are the claim that adding rules will help account for sloppy rigging.

You yourself argue that the riggers who skip battery replacements don't deserve the certificate.

Aviacom's stated purpose for the battery rule change is to make it less likely that they will see improperly maintained equipment.

Do you think they will achieve this goal by changing the rule?

At some level, we are discussing the possible existence of factors not revealed by the manufacturer.

The seemingly arbitrary nature of the change, where some have to have batteries replaced more often than others, makes the whole thing smell fishy.

So, it isn't just about the dollars.

But even if you only want to discuss the dollars, it can be a lot more than 1 extra set a year. Rigs may need repacks for a variety of reasons that have no bearing on the condition of the AAD. Is it right to require new batteries when the need for the repack had nothing to do with the AAD? I do a repack today, tomorrow the owner has a "normal" reserve ride with no AAD involvement. The new rule says he gets new batteries, even though the batteries he has are brand new. That just doesn't make sense.

And finally, if the rules made by the AAD manufacturer seem to make no sense, how can we not begin to question other things about them? Is their engineering also fraught with apparently senseless choices?

So many of the choices we make depend on our confidence in the manufacturer. When the manufacturer starts doing things that shake that confidence, how are we supposed to react?

[pchapman 279]

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Rigs may need repacks for a variety of reasons that have no bearing on the condition of the AAD.

Yeah!
Having the reserve out can help a lot with even some minor sewing and repair jobs.
Or there's the rig that's being aired out because it is a bit damp from the pond.
Or just adjusting the closing loop. In some countries, only the original rigger is supposed to do an 'open & reclose' without a full pack job.

Hell, I've had to do a couple repacks for people within days of the previous repack, just because someone snagged the handle at home.

[Fab 0]

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On their website.....lifetime of battery...AT LEAST one year an a standard battery..

http://www.argus-aad.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:nice-idea-whats-the-battery-life&catid=7:maintenance&Itemid=32

Well...they at least follow this thread :)...webpage already has been changed.
Fortunatly aviacom has dz.com to keep them apprised of needed updates on manuals and webpages

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[riggerpaul 1]

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On their website.....lifetime of battery...AT LEAST one year an a standard battery..

http://www.argus-aad.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:nice-idea-whats-the-battery-life&catid=7:maintenance&Itemid=32

Well...they at least follow this thread :)...webpage already has been changed.
Fortunatly aviacom has dz.com to keep them apprised of needed updates on manuals and webpages

If "by design" the battery life was 1 year, it would seem that they somehow fell short since the current requirements are to replace some batteries at significantly less than the "by design" life.

If this rule change is a CYA move, then say so. If not, are the people with a 1 year repack in jeopardy?

One or the other. I really cannot be both.

[riggerrob 643]

Considering how reliable modern mains are, most people only get their reserves repacked once a year, ergo, I am only planning on replacing Argus batteries once a year.

Why are we wasting so much time arguing over $25 batteries?

[sundevil777 102]

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Considering how reliable modern mains are, most people only get their reserves repacked once a year, ergo, I am only planning on replacing Argus batteries once a year.

Why are we wasting so much time arguing over $25 batteries?

Because if the reserve is used, then the Argus must get a new battery even if the battery was just replaced because of a reserve repack.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[BrianM 1]

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At some level, we are the claim that adding rules will help account for sloppy rigging.

I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that this rule will actually result in an increase in sloppy rigging.

How many riggers do you think were ignoring the 1 year battery replacement requirement?

How many riggers do you think will ignore the new requirement and replace the batteries annually, based on the logic that the manufacturer states they are good for at least that long, and allows it in some countries?

How many riggers do you think are going to ignore the new requirement during a mid-cycle repack of a rig with almost new batteries?

It's a safe bet that the second number will be larger than the first, and that the third will be considerably larger.


P.S. riggerrob: you are paying too much for batteries. Try MEC, they sell Panasonic CR123A's for $5 each - that's $10 for a set.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[Deyan 36]

P.S. riggerrob: you are paying too much for batteries. Try MEC, they sell Panasonic CR123A's for $5 each - that's $10 for a set.***

I think that Rob is adding the price for the work as well. I don't know a rigger who does the replacement for free

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[BrianM 1]

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I think that Rob is adding the price for the work as well.

Ah, good point - I hadn't considered that!

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I don't know a rigger who does the replacement for free

I do - I consider it as part of the repack and don't charge extra. It only takes a few minutes. I do pass on the cost of the batteries themselves, of course. If I was trying to earn a living at this, that might change, but as a weekend/evening rigger I'm not in it for the money (I just like parachutes).

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg