Presidential Announcement on NASA TV 15:15 Eastern

[cvfd1399 0]

We need a station on the moon if we plan to go further out in space. We use up all of our fuel trying to get out of the earths gravity that we can't go far without running out of fuel. That is why they launch as close to the equator as possible to get the slingshot effect to help them out of the atmosphere. We are working on other ways of propulsion but that is far far off. If we have a place to bring things it will help us get farther out to study/find things. We have to do it. The way we abuse earth she is going to be limited to a lifespan I believe and we need to find other places to live or technology that will help us stay here longer.

We can make an atmosphere on mars that is proven, but once that is set up we need to find other things that are building blocks making it possible for us to say there.

[Beerlight 0]

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Just curious: aren't you poor Americans already in enough debt? And are you ready for some more so you can have the prestige of being ahead the Chinese (they're coming strong)?

Regards to the first, I'm not in debt.

And, the Chinese "have" a space program? Seriously though, somebody's gotta lead.........

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Just curious: aren't you poor Americans already in enough debt? And are you ready for some more so you can have the prestige of being ahead the Chinese (they're coming strong)?

Regards to the first, I'm not in debt.

And, the Chinese "have" a space program? Seriously though, somebody's gotta lead.........

These guys crack me up.

never pull low......unless you are

[billvon 2,991]

>We need a station on the moon if we plan to go further out in space.

I just don't get this. It takes far more fuel to go from the earth, to the moon, to mars, and back to the earth, than just going to mars directly. It's like going from New York to Florida by way of San Francisco - except in our case, there would be no gas stations in San Francisco.

Zubrin put it best. "If you want to go to the moon, go to the moon. If you want to go to mars, go to mars."

>We can make an atmosphere on mars that is proven, but once that
> is set up we need to find other things that are building blocks
> making it possible for us to say there.

What do you need to live somewhere?

Food. You could grow food today in a tent full of martian air. (It would have to be pressurized to about 2psi, but you can use local air to pressurize it.) You cannot do this on the moon - plants can't live out 14 day nights, the radiation would kill them, and micrometeorites would destroy the tent.

Water. Mars used to have lots of it. It's likely some remains. It's looking more and more like the moon has none.

Shelter. You can live in a pressurized tent on mars. You need radiation shielding on the moon. If you dig a deep enough crater, you could live at the bottom of it with nothing more than an oxygen mask and a jacket - and grow food crops outside.

Power. Same basic problem in both places. Mars has solar power available, about half the amount that the earth has. The moon has more, but you have to go without for 14 days instead of 12 hours. There are several fuels (like silane) that will burn in a carbon dioxide atmosphere; on the moon, you need to carry everything with you.

So I just don't see the reason for going to the moon first. It's like saying we had to settle the Azores before we could settle America.

[quade 4]

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Shelter. You can live in a pressurized tent on mars. You need radiation shielding on the moon. If you dig a deep enough crater, you could live at the bottom of it with nothing more than an oxygen mask and a jacket - and grow food crops outside.

I thought the surface pressure on Mars was something akin to Earth pressure at 100,000 feet or thereabout. Well above the Armstrong Line of 63,000 feet where the lack of pressure would cause water to boil at human body temps.

In other words, wouldn't a pressure suit of some sort be required to walk around even at the bottom of a fairly deep hole in the bottom of a fairly deep crater on Mars?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,991]

>I thought the surface pressure on Mars was something akin to Earth
> pressure at 100,000 feet or thereabout. Well above the Armstrong
> Line of 63,000 feet where the lack of pressure would cause water to
> boil at human body temps.

Exactly right. If you dig a hole, both pressure and temperature are greater at the bottom of it. The crater would have to be around 10km deep (about as deep as Everest is high) to get to around 2psi, which is what you need to avoid that problem.

[cvfd1399 0]

That is the whole reason of setting up an atmosphere before we set up camp. I remember a thing that came out from nasa that showed us putting a bunch of "Gas generators" that would just constantly spew out carbon dioxide and other gases that make up our atmosphere. Over time it would build into what we have here on earth which helps block out radiation and provide heat to melt ice and make it warm.

[billvon 2,991]

>I remember a thing that came out from nasa that showed us putting
> a bunch of "Gas generators" that would just constantly spew out
> carbon dioxide and other gases that make up our atmosphere.

Mars is a big planet. Making enough gas generators to do that would simply not be doable. For 1/1000th the cost, we could easily change over completely from oil to solar power here on earth, and that would have a lot more immediate benefit. Fortunately, there are alternatives, like using lichen to change the albedo of mars a bit. That warms the surface, which warms the atmosphere, which melts CO2 at the poles, which thickens the atmosphere, which warms the surface . . . the idea is to create a runaway greenhouse effect.

[Beerlight 0]

How deep to get to 10 psi? That would be more liveable...

[SkydiverRick 0]

For 1/1000th the cost, we could easily change over completely from oil to solar power here on earth,

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

The guy is a dope lost in space....and seems he only does what he father did. Invade Iraq, try to plan a trip to Mars (luckily that one got shut down).

Now - wonder how all those folk at NASA feel that they will need to shut down programs to follow a plan that is purely political.

Ever notice that GW smiles at the end of every sentenace - almost as if he is proud of himself that he got the words out.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[NZL60 0]

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For 1/1000th the cost, we could easily change over completely from oil to solar power here on earth,

Where would we put all of those windmills?

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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I agree with John, there has never been a problem getting the money when the right person was asking for it.
I don't think they are worried about spending too much. Plus, I think the American people would support this. It's good for the American ego.

Yea! More inflated American Ego! Great...........We should concentrate on the ISS and perfect shuttle flights-and we can study Mars remotely............People here on earth have needs! Waste of money, besides, GWB father said the same damn political crap 10 years ago!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[kallend 2,027]

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That is the whole reason of setting up an atmosphere before we set up camp. I remember a thing that came out from nasa that showed us putting a bunch of "Gas generators" that would just constantly spew out carbon dioxide and other gases that make up our atmosphere. Over time it would build into what we have here on earth which helps block out radiation and provide heat to melt ice and make it warm.

Must be true, it was in a movie...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[n2skdvn 0]

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That is the whole reason of setting up an atmosphere before we set up camp. I remember a thing that came out from nasa that showed us putting a bunch of "Gas generators" that would just constantly spew out carbon dioxide and other gases that make up our atmosphere. Over time it would build into what we have here on earth which helps block out radiation and provide heat to melt ice and make it warm.

Must be true, it was in a movie...

looking for the vid....heres a text link
http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/mars/background/terra2.html

if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

[quade 4]

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Or convert America to metric at long last..hmm wonder which will happen first.. poll?

Why should the U.S. change over to metric?

Both systems are just as "accurate" and there are actually several advantages to using "Imperial" units.

It's not like -everything- has to be in Base 10. For example, you're probably never going to live to see a Base 10 second, minute, hour, day, week or month. What about Base 10 music?

Base 10 just isn't the be all and end all the silly Frenchmen that thought up the metric system thought it is.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkydiverRick 0]

Yea! More inflated American Ego! Great...........We should concentrate on the ISS and perfect shuttle flights-and we can study Mars remotely............People here on earth have needs! Waste of money, besides, GWB father said the same damn political crap 10 years ago!

[quade 4]

Unfortunately, a lot of folks that could use a helping hand aren't qualified to work at NASA.

We really need to do both things intelligently.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Unfortunately, a lot of folks that could use a helping hand aren't qualified to work at NASA.

We really need to do both things intelligently.

These types of project spin off many support jobs. Everything from janitors to scientists. Not every job created will be at NASA.

never pull low......unless you are

[quade 4]

True, but the majority of the funding will go to companies and people with intelligence and skills -- engineers mostly.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkydiverRick 0]

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True, but the majority of the funding will go to companies and people with intelligence and skills -- engineers mostly.

Well, we don't want those people working.

never pull low......unless you are

[quade 4]

Again and generally speaking, most engineers qualified to work on the project aren't looking for a hand out. If you recall, that was your statement I was responding to.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkydiverRick 0]

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Again and generally speaking, most engineers qualified to work on the project aren't looking for a hand out. If you recall, that was your statement I was responding to.

That's my point. I'd rather pay engineers to work than give the money to someone that won't. I'll also repeat myself by reminding you that many different jobs are created. Just look at the industrial parks that spring up around large contractors.

never pull low......unless you are

[ltdiver 3]

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If they're too pissed, guess who goes into a low quality "nursing" home?

Interesting you should state this...

I saw a bumper sticker that some children bought their mother (as a joke). It said, "Be nice to your kids...they'll choose your nursing home!".

It was a big joke between that family, but I really wonder just how much truth there is to that statement.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[kallend 2,027]

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Or convert America to metric at long last..hmm wonder which will happen first.. poll?

Why should the U.S. change over to metric?

Both systems are just as "accurate" and there are actually several advantages to using "Imperial" units.

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Have you ever tried doing quantum mechanics using Imperial units?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.