Luv2Fall 0 #51 December 4, 2003 Hey dude.......I've had a little.......you're right in that they were'nt going for the vulnerable points that one is taught in employing the baton.....far from it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #52 December 4, 2003 Quote Quote Quote The strikes they were using were designed NOT to inflict actual substantal damage. They are designed to lightly hurt You've got to be kidding. If you're hit with a metal baton it will only "lightly hurt" ? I'll get hold of a metal baton if you'd like to try it. Now whos the one getting alittle emotional about this conversation? hmm Andrew step away from the keyboard and back away from the debate.. you've obvisouly lost the battle to remain objective about the whole conversation. Just take a break dude... When you can explain to me how getting hit with a metal baton (or in this case, with several metal batons for 10 minutes) only "lightly hurts", then I'll take a break. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #53 December 4, 2003 Quote The prior events in Cincinnati where black men have been killed by Cincinnati police are not irrelevant to this case, nor are the millions of dollars that the City of Cincinnati have paid out in compensation for those cases. What makes millions of dollars rellavent to a 350lb. man that smoked Crack, and injested PCP, and attacked a police officer? When is it that a person loses the ability to take responsibility for his actions? The man did drugs and became violent. Do you really think that a man lying in the street, or parking lot area of a fast food restraunt would be ignored if the skin color was different?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #54 December 4, 2003 Quote Quote The strikes they were using were designed NOT to inflict actual substantal damage. They are designed to lightly hurt You've got to be kidding. If you're hit with a metal baton it will only "lightly hurt" ? I'll get hold of a metal baton if you'd like to try it. It's called 'pain compliance' - they focus the hits on the lower, backside of the body. It hurts, but doesn't really do any damage. Quote I will reiterate my point because you failed to grasp it. You have said that past events are irrelevant in this case (your post #33). To my mind, you are therefore choosing to be ignorant of the facts. You can't really use the past as a basis for coming to a judgement in this case. The Cinci PD is not one person. The officers invovled here weren't involved in the other 17. Personally, I think they did their jobs perfectly and with restraint - many others would have just put a bullet in the guy. And I don't think race had anything to do with it at all. If you want to bring history into it, then use both sides, state some of the other 'relevant' facts.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slappie 9 #55 December 4, 2003 I wasn't debating the fact that being hit by any blunt object is going to "lightly hurt" or not. Hell I've been hit many times by blunt objects, even the earth and it hurts.. Was just commenting on your line about getting a metal baton and asking the other person if they'd like to try. Did you want to be the hitter or the hittee? Either way someones going to wind up hurt. Stick to the debate not intangables... "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #56 December 4, 2003 Quote What makes millions of dollars rellavent to a 350lb. man that smoked Crack, and injested PCP, and attacked a police officer? Because those facts show that they have a history of killing people in error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luv2Fall 0 #57 December 4, 2003 Did the man feel any pain? I can't say, but I do know that when one is under the influence of PCP they either do not feel the pain - period, or their perception of pain is so altered, they hardly feel any........tis the reason police officers, over time, have had to use stronger methods in trying to bring such a person under control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #58 December 4, 2003 Quote You can't really use the past as a basis for coming to a judgement in this case. Why not? It illustrates the institutionalized nature of their behaviour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #59 December 4, 2003 Quote I will reiterate my point because you failed to grasp it. You have said that past events are irrelevant in this case (your post #33). To my mind, you are therefore choosing to be ignorant of the facts. You are incorrect. As for the baton usage. You have obviously never been trained how to use a baton. I have. Yes, it is a metal baton, but that doesn't mean it hurts more then a wood baton. It all depends on the type of grip, the type of swing and the area of the body you strike. If is was a spring ASP, then yes, every single strike you use will cause extreme damage (due to the velocity of the tip via the whip of the spring), but they weren't using those. How do I know? They're illegal in all 50 states for law enforcement to carry and/or use. I'm not going to take the time to try to convert many many hours of training into a single post for your own personal understanding, eitherway you probably wouldn't believe it, since you have no personal knowledge of it in the first place. So, believe if you wish (which I doubt you will). Oh, you do realize there was a black officer on the scene and was apart of the group trying to arrest the suspect, right?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #60 December 4, 2003 Quote Did the man feel any pain? I can't say, but I do know that when one is under the influence of PCP they either do not feel the pain - period, or their perception of pain is so altered, they hardly feel any........tis the reason police officers, over time, have had to use stronger methods in trying to bring such a person under control. I'm surprised that you would even care if he was in pain ot not, since your initial response in post #24 was to just say "Fuck him". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luv2Fall 0 #61 December 4, 2003 .......and I still stand by that. You were the one concerned about pain......PCP changes that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slappie 9 #62 December 4, 2003 Quote Because those facts show that they have a history of killing people in error. You've already decided the officers are at fault, because the Cinci PD has done it before. Your saying the officers went out of their way and killed this man on purpose. They are the ones at fault. The man going bezerk on the officers has no impact on their desicions to defend themselves? So because, the officers did what was nessicary to defend themselves they're at fault. "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #63 December 4, 2003 This was no error. Sad, but true. They are called peace officers, not because they solve every dispute peacefully, but because they keep the people that would disrupt the peace form hurting other people. Here's a question for you: What if they had just let him be, and he died.? They would have been pursecuted for not doing anything, and it would have been said that they were racists. I'll say it again, if it were me that was one of the cops, and someone hit me, they are going down, one way or another. The reason for that is that if the "perp" is crazy enough to hit a cop, he wouldn't think twice about assaulting you or your family, or anyone else. So, I ask you this: How many people did the cops save from harm by using whatever force neccessary to stop this guy?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #64 December 4, 2003 Quote You have obviously never been trained how to use a baton. Obviously huh? Well you're wrong (not unsual for you, I have to say). I have trained with a baton as part of my Jiu-Jitsu. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #65 December 4, 2003 Hence the "Know-it-all" and hyperdefensiveness attitude.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #66 December 4, 2003 Quote You've already decided the officers are at fault, because the Cinci PD has done it before. Your saying the officers went out of their way and killed this man on purpose. They are the ones at fault. That's for the courts to decide, ultimately. But I wouldn't be surprised if the courts statement is that the determine that the city police department has an institutionalized problem with their approach to this kind of incident, given their past history (18 black men killed by police since 1995) and the past financial settlements (the City has had to pay out over 3 million dollars for these types of case since 1999). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #67 December 4, 2003 Quote I have trained with a baton as part of my Jiu-Jitsu. And I was trained in Tae Kwon Do. Anyone who takes just about any sort of Martial Art will learn how to use a variaty of weapons. However, then I was trained at a tactical defense course I paid a lot of money to go to, which was taught by a handful of people that are experts in their fields (former Army Ranger for pistol, police officers (former DPS) for "other" weapons such as batons, etc) The two types of baton usage are quite different, as well as the actual batons being different. A metal baton can be used in such a manner that it doesn't even inflict as much pain as a wooden baton, but how you employ them is different. That is what I was implying in my previous post, when I stated that it doesn't matter it was a metal baton, in reference to the amount of pain it can or can't inflict. Anyways, at this point you're just grasping at straws to keep your futile arguement alive. Seems like you're getting upset as well, that's too bad, these discussions are usually much more productive (and enjoyable) when both sides are calm when trying to convey their opinion.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #68 December 4, 2003 Quote Because those facts show that they have a history of killing people in error. The officers here were invovled in an unjustified shooting before? When? Cinci isn't in that bad of shape - one study showed that 80% of the people shot at by police in Cinci were black. And guess what - 80% of those arrested for violent crimes were black. About 1/4 of the shootings were by black cops - and Cinci's PD is roughly 1/4 black. People take 'past history' so far out of context, and make it look applicable. Between '93 and '98, Washington's PD killed 57 people. Detroit's PD is averaging 10 a year. Out of the 18 people the Cinci PD has killed in the last 8 years, two were unarmed. And this last one - even though he wasn't armed, he was still attacking, and I don't even think you can say the police killed him. Like I said - if you want to throw numbers around, at least put them in context.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #69 December 4, 2003 Quote Quote You've already decided the officers are at fault, because the Cinci PD has done it before. Your saying the officers went out of their way and killed this man on purpose. They are the ones at fault. That's for the courts to decide, ultimately. But I wouldn't be surprised if the courts statement is that the determine that the city police department has an institutionalized problem with their approach to this kind of incident, given their past history (18 black men killed by police since 1995) and the past financial settlements (the City has had to pay out over 3 million dollars for these types of case since 1999). So you offer ONE statistic. Please be fair and post the rest, including race, of the men that have been killed by the Cin. PD. Since 1995, or, your example carries no weight.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #70 December 4, 2003 You could give me your entire "baton resume" and I would still disagree with your statement that being hit with a baton only "lightly hurts". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #71 December 4, 2003 Quote So you offer ONE statistic. Please be fair and post the rest, including race, of the men that have been killed by the Cin. PD. Since 1995, or, your example carries no weight. See my above post. If you count this last one, Cinci has killed 18 since '95 - 17 black and 1 white. And as far as I know, only one was unarmed (cop said he thought he saw a gun pointed at him) and of course #18 is still to be determined, but I don't think you can really say the police killed him or that their force was excessive.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #72 December 4, 2003 Quote You could give me your entire "baton resume" and I would still disagree with your statement that being hit with a baton only "lightly hurts". Can I call'em or what? Its like a deja vu statment from one of my very own posts. Bwahhahahahaha--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #73 December 4, 2003 Firstly, you don't pay someone $3,000,000 in a settlement unless you messed up. You seem to think that it's impossible for the Cincinnati police to ever make a mistake. And I didn't say that those particular cops were involved in a previous shooting (although they might have been). I said that I wouldn't be surprised if the courts determine that there is an institutionalized approach within the police dept that that ends up with people being unnecessarily killed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #74 December 4, 2003 Quote Quote You could give me your entire "baton resume" and I would still disagree with your statement that being hit with a baton only "lightly hurts". Can I call'em or what? Its like a deja vu statment from one of my very own posts. Bwahhahahahaha Well at least you keep yourself amused. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #75 December 4, 2003 Quote institutionalized approach within the police dept Ah, you must be refering to the institutionalized approach of an officer defending himself/herself. Silly us.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
