Cincinnati PD - death after arrest

[TheAnvil 0]

I have a lot of friends who are cops. If they ever kill someone in the line of duty, they are put on administrative leave for three days minimum. It probably differs from department to department, but I'd wager the practice is somewhat standard nationwide.

Also, anytime an officer kills someone in the line of duty it is investigated - a practice with which I wholeheartedly agree. From the video, I feel the officers in this incident have nothing to fear from any investigation.

What I find troubling about this incident is the race card being played by racial warlords. It shouldn't have been brought up at all and I find it disgusting.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[w4p2 0]

He got what he deserved.

Oh boy... one big box is needed before the dude is down the hole.

How would you like to carry that one?

I bet there is one scumback bum less in states, and this statement has nothing to do with race.

Time for celebration and BEEER.

Cheers: JL

[billvon 3,059]

>Don't assume it was racially motivated and then force these people
>to disprove that. That's unjust.

Didn't imply that. The burden of proof should be on the investigator, not the cop. Only if the investigator can show a clear pattern should action be taken.

[PhillyKev 0]

That's all I'm saying. I never said the death shouldn't be routinely investigated. I have a problem with the racially motivated witch hunt, though.

1) Investigate circumstances
...if race found to be a factor
2) Look at past incidents and see if a "pattern" is present

Don't try to fit the circumstances to a past pattern, as some are trying to do.

[Kennedy 0]

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You've got to be kidding.

If you're hit with a metal baton it will only "lightly hurt" ? I'll get hold of a metal baton if you'd like to try it.

Try to understand this one. If I am just letting my arm swing back and forth, and I have a baton in my hand, and you walk in front of me, the baton with hit you. It won't hurt you at all, but it will still hit you. But if I were to swing it like a bat at your head, it would hurt significantly more.

If a baton hits you in the thigh, it will hurt a bit less than between your legs or in the head, right?

So just MAYBE the way you hit someone, how hard you swing, and where it lands, DO affect the amount of pain, yes?

[edit] This mean you're going to take that break now? [/edit]

The coroner's report said he died as a result of police attempting to take him into custody. It never said he died as a result of baton strikes. It specifically said bruising was on the legs and lower body. Not once in the tape do you see the cops swing high at him. You do see them not swing several times, though. They seemed more concerned with his well being that you do.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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If the Cincinnati Police kill 20 people a year, and 19 are black, then that pattern should be investigated, and this incident would become part of that investigation.

Just to make sure everyone is clear, according to the cops biggest opponent in here,

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- Jones was the EIGHTEENTH black man to be killed by the police in Cincinnati since 1995.

so I think mentioning twenty a year is out of place.

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if it just so happened that 19 of the 20 times deadly force was warranted the victim was black. If that's the case, then no action need be taken, except perhaps changes in training to help cops subdue violent people without killing them as often.

Tell the NAACP and whatever bigmouthed Rev that no action need be taken. Want to guess what you'll be called?

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If there _is_ a pattern of officers targeting blacks, then that _is_ a problem, and has to be fixed. It has happened before. Hopefully that's not what's happening here.

Amen.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[turtlespeed 226]

Facts:
1) The Man Weighed approximately 350 lbs.
2) He was found lying in a parking lot. (Loitering)
3) He was high on Crack Cocaine (That is Illegal)
4) He was high on PCP (Also Illegal)
5) When he was approached by officers of the LAW he punched one in the face (Assaulting a Police Officer - very illegal)
6) The police officers tried to restrain him and arrest him. (That is what they get paid to do)
7) He resisted arrest (Resisting Arrest - yes, that one is illegal too)
8) He had an enlarged heart (Serious condition if not treated)
9) His blood pressure was up because of the struggle and the ILLEGAL drugs he had in his system.
10) He suffered from heart failure.

Hmmm, I just can't see my way to feel sorry for this guy.
I can't see where anyone else started this chain in motion.
He probably bought the drugs, he took the drugs, when is it that he has to start taking responsibility for his actions?

2 questions:
1) What would you have done to stop him. You have to arrest him, what would you do to accomplish that.

2) You take some PCP, then smoke some Crack, get on a plane and jump, you pull your pilot chute, and now you are flying under canopy. . .As you are coming in to land, you hit someone that is doing a high performance landing. You didn't see them because of your altered state of mind, he/she reacts in a manner that collapses your canopy, and you die because he/she was doing what he/she needed to do to avoid her own death and injury. Is it the other pilot's fault that you are now dead?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Kennedy 0]

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Firstly, you don't pay someone $3,000,000 in a settlement unless you messed up.

True, all settlements are justified and no settlement has ever been made for political or PR reasons. It's really nice to be in a society where frivolous lawsuits never happen.

True, but there were two settlements to two different parties.

Right. So the fact that a moving company I worked for paid two out of court settlements for personal injury to children must mean that we had an institutional approach based on hatred of children. Uh huh. Totally logical.


(Two different dumbass kids walked into a handcart and a raised liftgate. Both were told "stay away" and "dangerous." Owner paid up because court costs would have been more than he gave up.)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[andrewstewart 0]

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what would you have done to stop the guy?

I also asked that question. He ignored it, refusing to try to put himself in that position makes it easier for him to bash the officers invovled.

I didn't ignore it. I had to get on a plane (and I didn't get to jump out of it either).

Strangely, I don't get paid to sit around thinking about how to subdue suspects in a way that doesn't either cause or contribute to their death. That's not my job. It IS the police's job though.

If the current 'state of the art' technique is to have a bunch of cops hit the suspect with metal sticks until they are "subdued" (or in this case: dead), then I think there is something very, very wrong.

Saying something like "he had it coming" is the same as saying "he deserved to die" ("he was on drugs! he hit a cop!"). Well, I don't think he deserved to die, and I find it amazing that I seem to be the only person who thinks that.

[turtlespeed 226]

Deserving to die, and putting yourself in a position that can ultimately cause your death are two completely different scenarios.

If you forget to pull, is it the pilots fault that you died? No, you jumped out of the plane, it was your choice, just as it was his choice to take drugs.

Now, if he was just lying there and the cops came up and he was courtious, polite, and respectful to them, and they beat himn dead, then there would be cause to be outraged. But that is not what happened.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,059]

>If the current 'state of the art' technique is to have a bunch of cops
> hit the suspect with metal sticks until they are "subdued" (or in this
> case: dead), then I think there is something very, very wrong.

Hmm. Maybe their order of phasers hasn't come in yet. And I hear Spiderman is pretty stingy with his webslingers.

>Saying something like "he had it coming" is the same as saying "he
> deserved to die" ("he was on drugs! he hit a cop!"). Well, I don't
> think he deserved to die, and I find it amazing that I seem to be
> the only person who thinks that.

I don't think he deserved to die, but he gave up his right to not be assaulted when he hit a cop. And assaults can sometimes lead to your death. Imagine, for example, a case where a man steals a father's child and run down the street with it, and the father chases the man and pries his son out of his hands. He might break the man's finger doing it. Did he "deserve" to have a broken finger? Well, no. "Deserve" is one of those words that you can make mean anything. Did he have any right to not be assaulted by the father? No. He gave up that right when he tried to kidnap the child.

And saying "that father should have let him kidnap his son rather than risk injuring him" doesn't fly, at least in the worldview of 99.9% of the people in the world. Similarly, saying "the cops should have let that guy go rather than using the tools available to stop him" doesn't really fly either - at least with me. I'm glad there are cops willing to risk their safety to stop criminals, even when their use of force sometimes causes those criminal's deaths. It should be avoided where possible, but not at the expense of public safety - and letting criminals go is a problem in terms of public safety.

[Jimbo 0]

PhillyKev originally asked the question here, you still haven't provided an answer. What would you have done? We already know what the police did, and we know that you disagree with their methods. Again, what would you have done?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[turtlespeed 226]

Billvon - umm, you know we aren't exactly supposed to agree, right?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[andrewstewart 0]

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PhillyKev originally asked the question here, you still haven't provided an answer. What would you have done? We already know what the police did, and we know that you disagree with their methods. Again, what would you have done?

-
Jim

See my post #109 - prior to yours.

[Jimbo 0]

I did, you still haven't answered the question, you've only stated that you don't get paid to figure out the perfect solution. I pose the original question one last time, what would you have done?

If you can't supply an answer to the question then I'll have to assume that you would have done nothing differently.

How will you respond if the investigation concludes that the police officers did everything by the book, that excessive force was not used?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[turtlespeed 226]

You condemn, but don't offer alternate solutions?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,059]

>Billvon - umm, you know we aren't exactly supposed to agree, right?

Well, dang. I'll have to switch over to whatever Al Sharpton's saying - if I can figure out what exactly he _is_ saying, that is.

[Kennedy 0]

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Billvon - umm, you know we aren't exactly supposed to agree, right?

I was thinking the same thing....

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Jib 0]

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You condemn, but don't offer alternate solutions?

I know:

1) Set phasers on stun, Mr. Spock
2) Bones, quick get him with the hypospray.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[turtlespeed 226]

It makes one think that he doesn't see an alternate solution and must admit that the solution used was the best available.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[andrewstewart 0]

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I did, you still haven't answered the question, you've only stated that you don't get paid to figure out the perfect solution. I pose the original question one last time, what would you have done?

If you can't supply an answer to the question then I'll have to assume that you would have done nothing differently.

That's quite an assumption. My point is that I think it's unlikely that the authorities will even consider investigating other tactics; and part of that is because no-one seems to be able to entertain the idea that there has to a better way to subdue someone other than to hit them for 10 minutes with metal clubs.

[Jimbo 0]

You still haven't answered the question.

*sigh*

It's easy to sit up there on your throne and criticize, isn't it?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[andrewstewart 0]

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It makes one think that he doesn't see an alternate solution and must admit that the solution used was the best available.

Absolutely not.

[andrewstewart 0]

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You still haven't answered the question.

*sigh*

It's easy to sit up there on your throne and criticize, isn't it?

-
Jim

No, I'm just answering it in a way that you don't want to hear. How many times do I have to reiterate the same point?

[turtlespeed 226]

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It makes one think that he doesn't see an alternate solution and must admit that the solution used was the best available.

Absolutely not.

So what is your solution then?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun