Libya to give up WMD's. Hmmmmmmmm!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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You don't really believe that do you?

I certainly do believe I live in Canada

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[Gravitymaster 0]

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You don't really believe that do you?

I certainly do believe I live in Canada

Why don't you start a poll and ask how many people on this site only get their news from the American Press? I think you might be surprised at how wrong you are.

[mikkey 0]

Well, this is not so much about which countries media you use, this is about looking at things a little bit more in depth then what is fed you by Government spin doctors and "15 second grabs".

The guy who wrote this is a prof at the Centre of International Studies, Cambridge University - and his perspective is about looking at the total context of the pressure applied to Libya for over 20 years. That's really all. I think the Libyan situation is quite different from Iraq (including that Libya actually has WMD...) so the spin that this came suddenly because of Iraq (i.e. another "justification" ) is probably an oversimplification of the situation.

Just a footnote about the competency of the intelligence services. I noticed reports that the intelligence services in the US and UK ware very surprised about the extent of the Libyan WMD program. Funny - they told us that Iraq had lots of WMD and they don't have much, they did not believe Libya had much and they have massive programs. Now why are the taxpayers of these countries paying so much money to their intelligence services if they can't get it right on vital issues like this?

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Well, this is not so much about which countries media you use, this is about looking at things a little bit more in depth then what is fed you by Government spin doctors and "15 second grabs".

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What I was responding to was a statement that many aren't aware there are other news sources available which of course is rediculous. I also don't understand why more credibility is given to news sources from other countries than the US media. On the one hand the LLC tells us media outlets like Fox News is nothing but Bush Administration propoganda and sources such as MSNBC are more balanced. Now the LLC wants us to believe news sources in other countries are more reliable than US sources. News outlets sometimes get it right and sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes a different perspective is just that, a different perspective. Not necessarily more insightful or correct.

***The guy who wrote this is a prof at the Centre of International Studies, Cambridge University - and his perspective is about looking at the total context of the pressure applied to Libya for over 20 years. That's really all. I think the Libyan situation is quite different from Iraq (including that Libya actually has WMD...) so the spin that this came suddenly because of Iraq (i.e. another "justification" ) is probably an oversimplification of the situation.

It may very well be, but a this point, who knows for sure. One thing we do know for sure though is UN sanctions against Libya didn't work.

Just a footnote about the competency of the intelligence services. I noticed reports that the intelligence services in the US and UK ware very surprised about the extent of the Libyan WMD program. Funny - they told us that Iraq had lots of WMD and they don't have much, they did not believe Libya had much and they have massive programs.***

As I recall, SH was asked to explain what he did with the WMD he already admitted he had. He never explained and so the assumption was made he still had them. Right or wrong, it was still a valid assumption given his history.


*** Now why are the taxpayers of these countries paying so much money to their intelligence services if they can't get it right on vital issues like this?

Perhaps they have been distracted by other "events"

[mikkey 0]

quote]I also don't understand why more credibility is given to news sources from other countries than the US media
I agree with that, but different perspectives are healthy. I personally do read and view news from a number of countries and I find it useful. The US media has a certain "way" of looking at things - so getting e.g. a European perspective is not bad. And BTW this has nothing to do with "right or left".

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One thing we do know for sure though is UN sanctions against Libya didn't work.

I do not agree with that. If you look at the whole history of sanctions, they had an impact on the development of Libya's position. This includes admitting to terrorist acts, delivering the suspects to trial and paying compensation. That was an important step towards what has happened now - i.e. Libya does not want to be an outsider anymore and wants to develop its economy.

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As I recall, SH was asked to explain what he did with the WMD he already admitted he had. He never explained and so the assumption was made he still had them. Right or wrong, it was still a valid assumption given his history.

I tend to disagree. The assumption was not so much made on the Iraqi's lack of evidence underpinning their claim of having destroyed their WMD's - it was based on intelligence that they had WMD's. This intelligence was based on dubious sources and the US and UK chose to eat it "raw" - which is not normal practise in intelligence circles.
If you are going to war, you should be more careful with these things. It would have been "ironic" if Libya would have used a nuclear weapon against Israel and the US & UK would have no idea beforehand while they are chasing "alleged" WMD's in Iraq.
WMD’s are an important issue and with all the money spent on intelligence it would be nice to see them getting the facts right...

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[juanesky 0]

Maybe this is a figment of my imagination....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Maybe this is a figment of my imagination....

Now Juanesky, that article has no credibility because it's from a US news source. Have you learned nothing from this thread?

[vmsfreaky1 0]

I guess it shows terrorists that terror works! not a good thing in my opinion.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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As I recall, SH was asked to explain what he did with the WMD he already admitted he had. He never explained and so the assumption was made he still had them. Right or wrong, it was still a valid assumption given his history.

***I tend to disagree. The assumption was not so much made on the Iraqi's lack of evidence underpinning their claim of having destroyed their WMD's - it was based on intelligence that they had WMD's. This intelligence was based on dubious sources and the US and UK chose to eat it "raw" - which is not normal practise in intelligence circles.
If you are going to war, you should be more careful with these things. It would have been "ironic" if Libya would have used a nuclear weapon against Israel and the US & UK would have no idea beforehand while they are chasing "alleged" WMD's in Iraq.
WMD’s are an important issue and with all the money spent on intelligence it would be nice to see them getting the facts right...

[mikkey 0]

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Maybe this is a figment of my imagination....

Now Juanesky, that article has no credibility because it's from a US news source. Have you learned nothing from this thread?

Hmmm, this thread is about Libya changing policies. The article is about a conference of Arab countries around the Gulf (all US allies) discussing terrorism. Nothing to do with the Libya issue being discussed.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[juanesky 0]

Well, lets see....

Dubai links

UAE

More Arab news...

[verizon]Can u read me now? what about now?[/verizon]

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[happythoughts 0]

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I guess it shows terrorists that terror works! not a good thing in my opinion.

After a fashion, it does. What it does is make it too expensive to be there. If a safe business climate cannot be established, then eventually you have to deal with them. They are then a part of the political power structure, their goal.

That is why Arafats position is getting weaker. He is no longer the primary focal point. He cannot guarantee that if you deal with him, the violence will stop.

[FallRate 0]

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"I think you can chalk a victory up to GWB's foreign policy"

Agreed. I think it's cool that we are learning that diplomacy can work, and doesn't involve killing thousands. Let's hope this sort of approach continues.

I'm curious Bill...exactly how would you have dealt with Iraq in a purely diplomatic fashion? I'm curious.

FallRate

[mikkey 0]

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Perhaps this will help your memory.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/Bx27.htm

Well, nothing new in this. I wont search for this now, but may I point you amongst other to Powell's big presentation in the Security council "documenting" that Iraq had WMD's. GWB's State of the Union, etc. etc.
The excuse to go to war was that there was a) clear proof that Iraq had WMD's ready to go b) That this was a clear and present danger c) That they were building new WMD's like nuclear weapons.

The lack of Iraqi compliance in regard to documenting where the unaccounted WMD's were was NOT used as the MAIN argument for going to war.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[juanesky 0]

Again, you miss the point. If you care to read further, you will actually find a good explanation as to why Lybia is doing what is doing.

It is not my fault that you can't put dots together and form lines to what is obvious.

Assuming this so called leader, just one day decides to be cooperative, 7 days after SH was captured, just because that particular day he "felt" like it, then go on, keep on dreaming.

Why don't you rejoice to the fact that the IRAQI power transition is scheduled for June?

Is it that maybe you don't just like the US?. Please wait for a week until you see the news on your BBC, which is the time I would imagine will take them to actually print some unbiased ARAB news.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Gravitymaster 0]

Now Juanesky, that article has no credibility because it's from a US news source. Have you learned nothing from this thread?

[juanesky 0]

Well, I know he probably is putting the info and still delibarating on it.

Point is exactly that. He fails to see it, once you adress the issue that only US press is biased, I decided to find ARAB press news, and yet he still insists it has nothing to do with the topic in hand.

I think that there is also another travesty on this website If you let it run, you will see that Morroco news is actually encouraging people to apply for the US immigration visa lottery. Now, there is the joke of the day

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[mikkey 0]

Discussing with you is a waste of time. You have shown often enough that you are not able to have a coherent discussion and that you are not reading (comprehending) other peoples posts and you stray off topic.
Your rants normally include racist and bigot views so I wont waste my time on you. Maybe others will but not me. You are on my “ignore list”.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[juanesky 0]

Case closed Bob, another travesty....ahem casualty of war

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[mikkey 0]

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but I think he was trying to point out that Ghadaffi didn't just wake up one morning, look out his bedroom window and decide he wanted to re-enter the Global Community. He's trying to point out the effects of a strong US presence in the Middle East and how suddenly after years of ignoring and/or supporting terrorist orginazations, there's suddenly some additional motivation.

What the hell did we spend our time on discussing in this thread? My initial post in this thread was an article documenting how Ghadaffi had changed behaviour over a number of years and how different "pressures" applied for more then 20 years had influenced that. Did you not read that? That was the whole basis of discussion that there is an alternative view to the "Iraq war makes Libya give up WMD's". That he did not just look at Iraq and then changed his mind within the last few weeks.
Like talking to a wall.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Shark 0]

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Case closed Bob, another travesty....ahem casualty of war

Negative. BDA:Collateral Damage.

[juanesky 0]

You start complaining about the bias of US news, insinuation that BBC is the only true and honest news in the whole world, then care more about one article that says Ghaddafi was self motivated and take it out of context, ignoring what has happened in the last 20 years, and most likely 7 days ago with SH, and Lybia's change of heart suddenly can not absolutely have been caused by US policy in the region, according to your thought process.

Your are shown, several sources of ARAB news, which we all know here do not shed good light to US, and a pivotal change (at least I am assuming you think it is great news) to converge the efforts of 6 arab nations to promote a policy that combat terrorism in their own countries. Yet, I am the one who does not see the point.....

Thank god we are not doing RW for if I told you to pull, i could see you bouncing.....

Blue ones.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Gravitymaster 0]

Damn Mikkey, don't get all pissy on us, lighten up. The difference you are failing to see is what the motivating factors were. Thats what the thread was all about. Your contention that the war in Iraq had less to do with Ghaddaffis change in attitude and the other view that the war was a major motivating factor.
Juanesky simply presented you with news from a non-US media source and you go all ballistic on us. Whats up with that?


Edit: spelling

[mikkey 0]

MO of the right wing “club” on “Talk Back”

1) Post dubious “news” from a dubious source and declare it fact.

2) All other “club” member chime in, backslapping each other delighted how they shown off those “non-believers”

3) If nobody reacts to a post from the “club” for about 30 minutes – it will be claimed that those “lefties” have no come back or are too scared…

4) If somebody questions the “facts” or the “source”, presents an alternative view or even can provide documented facts contravening the “clubs” posts then there are 2 strategies employed: a) Ignore facts / arguments and attack poster (typical “leftie” full of hate/spin – anti-American – move somewhere else –etc. etc.) b) Stray off topic and mix one issue with another. Normally this includes making false claims about what the poster actually has written. (plus some attacks on a more personal level)

5) Always attack in packs and do not forget to congratulate each other for doing so.

Those threads are of course “dead”. People who enjoy a civil and useful discussion cannot be bothered to continue or people get pissed off with the “club” and end up in name calling contests. I am in the first category. Good night.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[juanesky 0]

Let me put it this way, you can PM me if you like once you receive the actual news of what is taking place.

Be 6 days or 6 months when they reach BBC. Does this sound fair?

Let me know if you were able to find your own reliable resource that the news of the 6 Arab nations did not have a summit to combat terror.

And merry Christmas.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon