Sabre with 900 jumps

[Martini 0]

No, I think Angle has the ability to regurgitate what he has read. Shared information is often skewed and often negatively so because angry people are prone to rant while contented people don't have an agenda. OTOH cancer and cigarettes are a relationship that is scientifically documented. BTW Sabres are pretty highly regarded among wingsuiters for their consistent sweet openings and relatively docile behavior.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[Martini 0]

Did you ever have the line trim checked? Was it an older canopy with the original lineset? How were your packing skills? Did you get advice from someone who knows how to pack a Sabre correctly? If you had serious problems did you seek the advice of a rigger? I know people who have broken lines on everything from Triathlons to Xaos's, that doesn't mean that those are bad canopies.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[stevebabin 0]

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No, I think Angle has the ability to regurgitate what he has read. Shared information is often skewed and often negatively so because angry people are prone to rant while contented people don't have an agenda. OTOH cancer and cigarettes are a relationship that is scientifically documented. BTW Sabres are pretty highly regarded among wingsuiters for their consistent sweet openings and relatively docile behavior.

So, you say wingsuiters love the Sabre for it's sweet openings.
IF that's the case(Not that I really think you are qualified to speak for the wingsuiting community), the normal deployment speed of a wingsuiter may have a lot to do with it. I used to love my Dragon BASE canopy, but I think it would have sucked as a freefall skydiving main.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[Martini 0]

Obviously I don't speak for all wingsuiters, you're simply twisting my words to support your opinion, I didn't say ALL wingsuiters, if I need to say SOME wingsuiters then OK. As for deployment speed I'm perfectly happy jumping mine RW and FF.

I've jumped my vented Troll at terminal, yep it's a little harsh but then you would expect that with vents. A friend who BASEs the same canopy also has one a size smaller and unvented, he uses it exclusively for skydiving so he always has his (considerable) BASE skills highly tuned.

You aren't the only Sabre hater by a long shot nor am I the sole Sabre fan. As I previously noted the Sabre clearly has had issues with hard openings. PD didn't respond well to that and I also believe that they may have made poor slider size choices. Not every Sabre owner has issues with the canopy though.

I'm really not interested in debating this further, it isn't productive. OTOH I am interested in discussing the reasons behind the Sabre's reputation as a hard opener, I have a few theories but also some experiences that don't fully support them. Kinda like I can't really explain the several really hard openings on my super-snivelly Xaos.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[kellja2001 0]

Sabre 150 here.

Love it on a wingsuit. Love it RW. Hell, I even got a 1000' snivel out of mine once (RW).

Don't have any of these crazy mods people talk about.

I don't even roll the nose.

Sure, eventually it'll spank me. I have no doubt of it, but that said, so have my Safire 2... and my Fury.

My rigger taught me some ways of getting a Sabre to snivel (yes, snivel, not snatch) for a while, and I won't lie, he's put my fears to rest.

[davelepka 4]

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There is no good reason for a person today to consider buying a Sabre, given it's track record.

A couple of thoughts to add here - first off, the Sabre was one of the first mainstream Z-po canopies, and was designed to replace all the F-111 mains in service. Of course, at that time nobody knew what was going to happen to a Z-po main 1000 jumps down the road as F-111 canopies never made it that far.

Either way, the openings were 'tuned' to replicate what you got with a new F-111 canopy, provided a perfect pack job. In hindsight, we know there are two problems with this -

1. Brand new ZP is a bitch to pack, so gettting a 'perfect' pack job, like the test jumpers used, was a task most jumpers were not up to.

2. As it turns out, mircro line gives the opposite raction as dacron as it ages. F-111 canopies were known to have longer openings as they aged, so you designed them to be 'firm' right out of the box, so as it aged, the openings would soften up, but not take 1500'. When you ship a Z-po main with micro line that starts with 'firm' openings, they only get worse as the lines wear and begin to shrink.

(Just a side note for those who don't know - spectra line shrinks with age. When your steering lines shrink, it's like moving the brake setting further up the line, which makes the openings faster.)

So you take the Sabre, ship it with a slider and line trim that aren't going to be tolerant of sloppy packing, or poor maintenace, and let people jump it for 10 years. Now it's a cheapo canopy, attractive to new jumpers without a bunch of money to buy a rig. Two things these jumpers don't have are 1.) Great packing skills, and 2.) Money to spend $200 on a reline. What you end up with is the 'perfect storm' for hard openings, sloppy packing and out-of-trim linesets.

To that end, I think the factory now ships a larger slider than they originally did for the Sabre. So if you get the 'current' sized slider, and have the steering lines replaced from the canopy to the toggle, the Sabre is no longer a 'problem'.

I jumped a 135 and a 107 Sabre for about 1000 jumps between the two of them, with 90% of those jumps with a full face, 8mm video and 35mm still camera, with one or two hard openings to speak of.

[crotalus01 0]

Yes it was checked and in trim, my packing skills were okay at best but it was packed by some of the most experienced jumpers at our dropzone with the same results - sometimes it was brisk, sometimes it was brutal. I tried 2 different sliders on it, one oversized from PD and one with a pocket - same results.
2 of my 3 cutaways were on that canopy, both from brutally hard openings. The last straw was 9 broken lines. And I agree, any canopy can break lines (I broke a steering line on my Safire last October) but 9?
Despite the opening issues I had, I never said it was a bad canopy. I would still be jumping it if I had been able to get the openings comfortably consistant. I would still be willing to jump a Sabre, just not a 190.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[skybytch 273]

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Don't jump an original Sabre. They will, on occasion, open hard enough to injure you.

Better not jump a Sabre 2 then. I know two people who were injured by hard openings on those.

Better not jump a Spectre,either. I've had two really hard openings on those.

For that matter, better not jump anything, because ANY canopy can open hard enough to hurt you.

[Martini 0]

Great post Dave, nice job pointing out the things that conspired to help create issues for some Sabre owners. I'd like to add that Sabres from 107 to 170 came with the same size slider, that might help account for the slammer reputation of the 170. OTOH I never had a problem with a 170 that I borrowed years ago. I also wonder if some of the older canopies, particularly larger sizes, might have had inconsistent construction quality that created some bummer canopies. That might account for the reports of canopies in trim and packed by sabre-savvy packers that still opened hard. My experience has been that attention to the slider is critical to Sabre openings, far more negative potential than other canopies.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[michalm21 2]

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theres a sabre in the classifieds with 900 jumps on it , 100 on the lines. My question is , does the canopy have enough life left to buy it? Im a newbie and this would be my first rig so all input is welcome.

Can't tell whether to buy it or not, but in terms of lifespan you should not worry much given the canopy is in good shape.

I put 400 jumps on my SA2, and now it has around 900 jumps and is great. Also, not too long ago bough another SA2 with appx 800 jumps on it and expect it to last for a long time.

Buying a canopy like this you gets you
a) good price b) zp that packs easy

[Martini 0]

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Buying a canopy like this you gets you
a) good price b) zp that packs easy

Interestingly PD used a different ZP material or coating for a while that remains slick even after many hundreds of jumps. A friend had a Stiletto made of the stuff and one of my Sabres has it. Not as slick as a new canopy but way more slippery than "ordinary" ZP.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[Doperope 0]

Hey Crotalus!
Just curious, did your 190 have dual steering lines or were they cascaded together?
Reason I ask is I bought a 210 in the fall from a good friend of mine, I have practice packed it all winter just wating for spring to try it out. It still has the 4 line steering system, and i could definately see how cascading that single inner line would cause some "uncomfortable" openings.

Bad decisions make good stories!!

[crotalus01 0]

Mine had dual steering lines.
I have never jumped a Sabre 210, but I am betting if the opening are okay you will love the canopy. Outside of the openings my Sabre was a wonderful canopy in every way...

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[stevebabin 0]

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Mine had dual steering lines.
I have never jumped a Sabre 210, but I am betting if the opening are okay you will love the canopy. Outside of the openings my Sabre was a wonderful canopy in every way...

"other than that, Mrs Kennedy, wasn't it a wonderful parade?"

You guys are killing me!!

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[virgin-burner 1]

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Don't jump an original Sabre. They will, on occasion, open hard enough to injure you.
Don't take my word for it...Do a search on here with the key words "Sabre" and "hard Opening"
There is a better way today. There are many parachutes that will serve you better for the same money.
Be wary of anyone that tells you that it's a good canopy. They either don't have a clue, or they don't have your best interests in mind.

Doing that search will also show that many have used simple mods to the slider to fix that very effectively. I have never jumped one, but would not be so quick to discount that experience of many others. Besides, PD says that there was never a problem with the original Sabre, any hard openings were due completely to packing technique.

And PD is, on this issue, full of shit. They have a vested interest in everyone believing that they didn't market a canopy with a serious design flaw.

I have jumped many Sabres, with the modded slider, using their packing instructions. They all, on occasion, will smack the shit out of you. There's a better way today. There are a lot of parachutes out there that don't have this inherit problem.

The original Sabre is best relegated to duty as a car cover.

maybe you are!? i put 200 jumps on mine and NEVER had a hard opening. maybe your packing sucks?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[stevebabin 0]

Yeah, that must be it. Your whopping 200 jumps on a canopy is proof of that. All those people who wrote the reviews are full of shit too, along with the ones who sustained injuries because of hard openings. We must all be full of shit.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Yeah, that must be it. Your whopping 200 jumps on a canopy is proof of that. All those people who wrote the reviews are full of shit too, along with the ones who sustained injuries because of hard openings. We must all be full of shit.

If you look statistics only we should eat sh1t, some billions of flies can not be wrong.

I also jump some canopies which has a reputation. Should i stop jumping those because of bad reviews of other ppl?

[virgin-burner 1]

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Yeah, that must be it. Your whopping 200 jumps on a canopy is proof of that. All those people who wrote the reviews are full of shit too, along with the ones who sustained injuries because of hard openings. We must all be full of shit.

If you look statistics only we should eat sh1t, some billions of flies can not be wrong.

I also jump some canopies which has a reputation. Should i stop jumping those because of bad reviews of other ppl?

According to steve, yes. They're only good for car-covers..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[mrbiceps 0]

i spent $150 and had my rigger make me a massive slider up for my sabre 1. it was around 50% bigger than the standard one. My openings with that slider were very soft and pretty much equal with my current saffire 2 which have a reputation for soft openings.
Anyone who says a sabre 1 is only good for a car cover is an idiot if u ask me, I recently brought a sabre 1 with 700 jumps on it for $400. I think its a bargain and a great starter canopy for that price.

[virgin-burner 1]

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i spent $150 and had my rigger make me a massive slider up for my sabre 1. it was around 50% bigger than the standard one. My openings with that slider were very soft and pretty much equal with my current saffire 2 which have a reputation for soft openings.
Anyone who says a sabre 1 is only good for a car cover is an idiot if u ask me, I recently brought a sabre 1 with 700 jumps on it for $400. I think its a bargain and a great starter canopy for that price.

I tend to agree, but the guy with close to 5000 jumps said it aint so; he must be right!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda