Vallerina 2 #1 December 23, 2003 "Wha wha wha....there aren't enough girls in this sport," said the many men running around at various dropzones. I have a solution to all of your problems. You can get more girls at the dropzone! The way to do it is to stop being creepy!!! If you're a respectable guy who looks into a woman's eyes while talking to her, then you don't need this thread and can move on. However, if you can't remember the color of a woman's eyes 5 seconds after talking to her, this advice may be for you. Now, I'm a bit more playful, and I think flirting is fun! Winking at someone, touching someone's arm, hugging, and joking around are acceptable forms of flirting. Grabbing legs, butt, boobs, ogling, detailing what you would like to do to that person (all of this being if you are not that person's significat other) is creepy. I don't fish for compliments, but I'll gladly take them when I get them. Compliments are not detailed descriptions of body parts. Once again, that falls under the creepy category. Watch what you say! Making lude comments about other women behind their backs are often overheard. Once again, this is very creepy. I've often ignored comments and the people who make them. It can get hard to constantly ignore comments and remarks that instructors/riggers/S&TAs/vidoegraphers and other men highly regarded at the dz make. It seems like because everyone wants to feel free at a dz that some men let this be their "okay" to be gross and creepy. I think some men attach a free-love, orgy-fest stigma to dropzones in general. I guess that's why they feel okay about making lude remarks, grabbing inappropriate places, staring at a woman's chest all right in front of her significant other. I'm not a beauty queen (I'm the funny and smart girl), but I'm young. It seems that old, creepy men look and make lude remarks about anyone...even blow up dolls. It can be an uncomfortable situation when all a girl wants to do is go and make a few jumps and laugh but instead has to put up with constant gross descriptions of what some men would like to do. And, before creepy men comment here that I should deal with it (I do, actually), and that the dropzone is the one place where they can really be themselves and say what they want...well, then don't complain about the lack of women at a dz. If you're a respectable guy who is affected by the actions of creepy men scaring off nice women, then say something. I've told men, "That's disgusting," "My face is up here," etc, but they seem to laugh it off...very annoying....especially when it's someone highly regarded. So, you want more women....stop being so damn creepy! ***Note...this is why I like Hinckley. There are very few creepy men, and there are so many nice women there. If there's a creepy guy, I can just go talk to a woman.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chute 0 #2 December 23, 2003 If the guys would stop being Super Sky Diving Stud and let the girls go there to have fun or get into the sport (not your sports briefs) More will show up to jump. Not every woman wants to go to a DZ to pick up a broke dick cheap ass skydiver that thinks he looks good in his handme down jumpsuit and rental rig.Bottomless Beers and Blue Skies! * Brother_Brian * D.S.W.F.S.B. #2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #3 December 23, 2003 Then why are you with such a creepy guy? JK, had to throw in a shot at Sethy poo.... Well, um...I'm not creepy.....*looks up from chest*....i'm sorry, what were you saying? Okay, on a serious note: Nice post, you have a great point. IMHO I think joking around can be okay as long as it's appropriate. For instance, it's okay for a guy to come up to you (one you've known well for a while, like ME!! ) and say something like "Hey there sugarbuns, how YOU doin??" in a joking manner, and that'd be funny. What would NOT be appropriate would be the same thing, having the guy being serious, and him grabbing your ass as he said it. This is the "orgy fest" dropzone mentality a lot of places have, and yes, I do believe that the comfort level of "be yourself" at the dz encourages that. Unfortunately, let's face it, lots of people on dz's are kinda perverts just for this very reason, and while it's not always appropriate, it's simply the way it is. I agree that they shouldn't make you feel uncomfortable, and I agree about the "5 second eye color" thing. Btw, I saw you a few weeks ago and your eyes are blue aren't they? (Watch them be brown...) But really, some people I guess are just like that, so the only way to deviate from this behavior is simply to avoid them. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #4 December 23, 2003 I understand your point, but I think some of this might be the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas mentality. If the guy is attractive, women are far less likely to be creeped out by sexual advances and are far less likely to take offense. This in effect causes the problem, because women (well, I might as well say we) might be more quick to giggle at a hot guy saying something inappropriate, but immediately want to slap the scary ones (or just older ones who are not necessarily scary). But our reaction to the attractive men just fuels the same type of behavior from ALL men. Basically, WE need to take a stand against ALL guys who behave like this, or just deal with it. Obviously, there is a line that should not be crossed, and it has been crossed before on numerous occasions. And that's when my foot meets the middle of someone's ass. Anyway, Val, I'm not saying this to you, per se, because I don't know you, and it sounds like you've been firm with men in the past, so you rock! I'm just saying that all of us women would have to behave very differently to effect this change in the MEN's behavior. Just my $.02. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #5 December 23, 2003 QuoteIf you're a respectable guy who looks into a woman's eyes while talking to her, Women have eyes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #6 December 23, 2003 Quotebut immediately want to slap the scary ones (or just older ones who are not necessarily scary). I do fall under that category somewhat. What I find appropriate for guys my age is not appropriate for guys my father or grandfather's age. I am creeped out by that. QuoteBasically, WE need to take a stand against ALL guys who behave like this, or just deal with it. The only thing with this is that women are all different. We're all comfortable/not comfortable with different things. Men and women should treat each other with the "test the waters" kind of respect. Neither gender should come right out and grab each others private parts after knowing them for 2 days. If girls/guys are okay with non-significant others grabbing private parts, so be it. I won't ruin your fun, just don't try it on me, or you won't get your hand back! Guys need to stop assuming that what's okay with one woman will be okay with all. Important note:I agree with WrongWay! QuoteWhat would NOT be appropriate would be the same thing, having the guy being serious, and him grabbing your ass as he said it. This is pretty much what I'm talking about....I'm okay with joking around...I'm not okay with men being creepy!There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #7 December 23, 2003 QuoteGuys need to stop assuming that what's okay with one woman will be okay with all. Excellent point. I could also say, though, that just because we APPEAR to be ok with something does not mean that we are. Just a lesson for the guys who read this thread. And my lesson to the women (myself included) is contained in my prior post. If everyone read dz.com, we could live in a skydivers' utopia! Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #8 December 23, 2003 QuoteWhat I find appropriate for guys my age is not appropriate for guys my father or grandfather's age. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #9 December 23, 2003 QuoteI could also say, though, that just because we APPEAR to be ok with something does not mean that we are. Just a lesson for the guys who read this thread. Yes!!! It would be great if women were assertive and said, "You're an ass," but some women would rather not go back to the dz then say something. If guys want more girls at the dz, then they'll create a more female-friendly environment. Just because a woman giggles at your perverted comments does not mean she is comfortable with them. You may be scaring women off with such creepiness.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #10 December 23, 2003 QuoteWhat I find appropriate for guys my age is not appropriate for guys my father or grandfather's age. Well, if you werent so damm young, we wouldnt all be your father's age Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #11 December 23, 2003 Great write up! . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #12 December 23, 2003 A smart girl who doesn't know how to spell lewd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #13 December 23, 2003 QuoteA smart girl who doesn't know how to spell lewd. What me to show you what I do know how to spell? Ick! It's early! I didn't sleep well last night! My spelling skills are a sufferin'!There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #14 December 23, 2003 Val, you make some really valid points. It’s not all guys by any means but at most DZs I’ve been to there are a small minority of gross, creepy men. The biggest problem as I see it is that the normal decent guys who wouldn’t dream of speaking to women like that allow the creeps to get away with it and as a result the creepy behaviour becomes accepted. Now I’m not saying anyone should go punching the creeps (although wouldn’t we all like to sometimes…) but just a quietly placed word from one of the many decent men on the DZ will often be enough to shut the creep up and keep women feeling comfortable. Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #15 December 23, 2003 Quote***Note...this is why I like Hinckley. There are very few creepy men, and there are so many nice women there. If there's a creepy guy, I can just go talk to a woman. I think part of what makes hinckley comfortable for women, is the fact that there's so many women there. For whatever reason, a lot of women prefer Hinckley over other area DZ's. I do not presume to understand why this is the case. That said, it's a good thing for Hinckley, because it means there's a lot of women there. What does this mean? It means that for creepy guys like Me, Andri, Peter, Dennis... well, we're able to find women that don't find us creepy. We quickly marry them, to "lock them in," so to say. Except for Peter, he hasn't "locked in" yet, but he will. Anyways, so us creepy guys get women who don't find us creepy, then we don't hit on single women so they don't complain about the creepy guys! It's genius! _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #16 December 23, 2003 QuoteI could also say, though, that just because we APPEAR to be ok with something does not mean that we are. And you don't see a problem with that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #17 December 23, 2003 I do, did you see my post prior to that? But the fact is, most women would rather not stir up trouble and be labeled the "psycho bitch who can't take a joke." Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #18 December 23, 2003 QuoteI could also say, though, that just because we APPEAR to be ok with something does not mean that we are. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And you don't see a problem with that? I was thinking that as well. There is a problem if someone is offended or bothered by the actions of someone, if nothing is said. You may find it easier to walk away, but if nothing is said, that person may continue that behavior and offend others. If you say something, then you may be stopping the action all together and resolving an overall problem.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #19 December 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteI could also say, though, that just because we APPEAR to be ok with something does not mean that we are. And you don't see a problem with that? I definitely see a problem with that! Women should speak up in any situation that they are not comfortable with. I usually do, but even I've been intimidated by someone's status at a dropzone. (Not so much anymore, because I couldn't care less anymore. I have called so many men complete asses in the past year....not sure why...they don't seem to care.) Ooh...which does bring me to another point...even saying something about it doesn't do any good. If a guy doesn't respect me enough and says lewd and nasty things, then he won't respect my opinion about it either. I'm just trying to help men out here. Sure, women should tell them when they're uncomfortable. But, men complain about the lack of women on a dz...I'm trying to clue them in on a few possible reasons for it. It's simple....you want more women...stop being creepy...even if they don't tell you you're creepy.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #20 December 23, 2003 Reminds me of a sermon I heard Sunday morning. "A little respect goes a long way." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #21 December 23, 2003 QuoteFor whatever reason, a lot of women prefer Hinckley over other area DZ's. I know the reason! Doug is way too charming for his own good! Actually, I think I've felt creepiness at equal levels at all of the area dzs. The main difference is that the staff/dzos at Hinckley (from my experiences) have been more professional and less creepy than any other dz I've been to. It is extremely refreshing to be around someone like Todd...someone who clearly treats females the same way he'll treat males (his wife's hot, though, so he has no reason to flirt!) We all have our limits. Men should learn them before testing them. For example, I am creeped out by anyone who is 40+ talking about how they'd like to have sex with me. It's very gross to me. Even when I tell them that I would rather spoon out my eyes before touching them, they still don't get a hint.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #22 December 23, 2003 QuoteWhat I find appropriate for guys my age is not appropriate for guys my father or grandfather's age. I am creeped out by that. Does that make you an agist? I thought no meant no and wrong meant wrong. If you substituted races in lieu of ages in that statement, you would be castrated (See, I am not a sexist.). QuoteThe biggest problem as I see it is that the normal decent guys who wouldn’t dream of speaking to women like that allow the creeps to get away with it and as a result the creepy behaviour becomes accepted. What about if the creepy thing is said by a young guy? Then, apparently it is okay? How do we know who creeps you out and with whom you are flirting? Hell, even The Backstreet Boys get dates. And that creeps me out.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #23 December 23, 2003 QuoteHow do we know who creeps you out and with whom you are flirting? Easy rule. You? No. Me? No. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #24 December 23, 2003 Erm – you seem to be combining someone else’s poist (Val’s, I think) with mine. I didn’t say anything about age! Creepy behaviour is very different from harmless flirting – creepy behaviour is behaviour that is clearly entirely inappropriate. It often involves lewd (yes that word again!) innuendos, comments about the girl in question’s sex life and/or body and/or what the creep in question would like to with the women in question... in the extreme this can involve unwanted (and entirely uninvited) groping. That is not flirting, that is pervy and creepy. The difference is very obvious. Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #25 December 23, 2003 I dont think that a gentleman should say something lewd or suggestive to anyone regardless of their relative ages unless they are already close and have some type of understanding betwen them on the matter. Any man that does this IS creepy. Period. By the same token, I have seen plenty of women that routinely get away with behavior that would get any man labeled creepy. This is because by and large, men are far less likely to be offended by this kind of behavior than women are. This is also unacceptible and those women need to take a look at their own behavior. At 40 I'm neither old nor am I young. I'm not a prude and its doubtful that anyone could say anything that could offend me. If a woman made lewd or overly flirtatious comments toward me I wouldnt be offended. I wouldnt be in any big hurry to hang around with that person either. I personally dont care to have anyone, regardless of how attractive they may be, being that familiar with me unless its a close friend or someone I'm already involved with. Still, I believe in manners and a respectful code of conduct that all people, men and women alike, should all follow as a general rule of thumb. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
