Army Lt. Col. Allen B. West update

[vonSanta 0]

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You ask how far would I go? I was a Platoon Sergeant and later a Company Gunnery Sergeant when I was in the Marines. The most important thing to me was the lives of the people that I was in charge of. How far would I go to protect them, how far would I go if I even THOUGHT it would save one of their lives? I would do anything that you mentioned in your questions if there was even a THOUGHT that it would save the lives of the people in my charge!

Alright, thanks. Your answer sorta scares me though. You'd torture to the extreme 80 innocent civilians to get 20 bad guys to talk (worst case scenario).

Not to invoke Godwin's law, but such loyalty to men under one's command was witnessed in my country over 60 years ago. My great grand dad was a resistance man and some of his buddies were tortured and killed by the Gestapo. It probably saved the lives of German soldiers, but I cannot condone such acts.

If we ever meet, remember to give me the code word in advance

Lee: "I'll pull it, see if I don't!"
Santa:" "But I DON'T KNOW where the case of beer is!"
Lee: " That case is VITAL to the well being of my men. Speak or have it pulled!"
Santa: " "I DUNNO what you're talking about. But I can get you another case!"
Lee: "Wrong answer dude"

If that ain't scary...

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[bodypilot90 0]

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Just a question:

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have you ever been in the military? I'm not talk about working for the gov't?

so you are not going to answer this?

[bodypilot90 0]

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I have been in the Army for 6 years. I am a Non-Commisioned Officer, and I am currently in Iraq. Now, it is convenient to sit back in the comfort of your homes in the Unites States and say that you would or would not do this in this certain situation. However, how many of you have watched an American soldier die from their wounds...I have. I watched as 2 soldiers lost thier lives. I have seen others who were injured, and had to be returned to the States for surgery to put them back together.

I don't think that it is fair to fight a battle while being hamstrung. The Iraqi's have no qualms with torturing and killing US soldiers. My question for you is why can't we use thier tactics? I understand that we are supposed to be the moral leaders, but that isnt saving lives. In the situation that LTC west was in, I would have done the same thing. I probably would have gone a lot farther, if there was the possibility of saving American lives. I say that LTC West is a hero!

I want to thank you for a job well done. I wonder how far some of people would have wanted him to go if it was their son or brother going out on the next recon?

[kpjumps 0]

Everything you said is so right, in theory and textbook...

But what would you do if you and to walk away from this man, sure he had answers to save your men and know you were heading back in to have a last meal with them? And listen to one young man talk about his baby that had just been born and he had not seen? One young man talk about hoping to get back home to say good bye to his father who is ill?

I hope you never know...

Maybe he crossed a line, but isn't war all about drawing a line in the sand and daring someone to cross it?

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[b1jercat 0]

Hang that bozo by his balls, shame on him, for ratting himself out. What the hell did he expect a medal or something?

blue skies

jerry



__________________________________________________

Lying about a blow job never got anyone killed!

[kallend 2,106]

How does my military record in any way affect whether or not LTC West violated the UCMJ or the Geneva Conventions, and whether or not he should receive a fair trial or a trial by letter writing campaign and internet innuendo?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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How does my military record in any way affect whether or not LTC West violated the UCMJ or the Geneva Conventions, and whether or not he should receive a fair trial or a trial by letter writing campaign and internet innuendo?

Sounds like a "no" to me.

never pull low......unless you are

[andybr6 0]

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But what would you do if you and to walk away from this man, sure he had answers to save your men and know you were heading back in to have a last meal with them? And listen to one young man talk about his baby that had just been born and he had not seen? One young man talk about hoping to get back home to say good bye to his father who is ill?
I hope you never know...

I understand your point, it must be unimaginble difficult to do that and in some cases it may not be the best thing to do, however in this case it was. In iraq we are fighting for a moral victory as well as a military one. How can we expect the Iraqi people to accept a democratic and just system if we do not practice it ourselves. Commanders have to make difficult decisions and deal with difficult situations, if they are incapable of doing this then they should not be in that post. Col. West will have his case heard by an official who follows the law regardless of how he feels about the case, Col. West should have shown the same distance with his prisoner that the judge must show with him. I know this is all theory but it is theory and textbook that the western deomocratic system of government works on, the same system that we are trying to implement over in Iraq.

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[newsstand 0]

I'll admit to taking it off topic there in the latter paragraphs but I am afraid that this part of the quote is what really scares me.

"Kill em all and let God sort em out" (not said by West but one of the posters here)

Does nothing to support our claimed higher moral ground. What if this guy hadn't known anything or was willing to die for the cause? Would West have capped him? We don't know but sooner or later someone will if this isn't punished. Now there are lots of levels of punishment in the military and granted anything that happens is a career killer for this guy.

We are supposed to be the good guys, we should act like it.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[usmcdannyboy 0]

maybe I missed it but i didnt see anyone mention that todays military knows full well that if you tourture someone they will tell you what ever you want to hear. but if you scare the shit out of them, or give them an incentive to tell you what they know, more than likely they will without imbelishments. I come from a military family (I still have family from wwI) and all my relatives had said that the united states has always been the most humane on the battle field. thats not to say we didnt partake in tourture. but we have done better than most in keeping the monster that is in us all in check. and as far as Lt.Col. West is conserned he did not tourture that man, he just gave him an incentive to give up the goods
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I am the light my son...What you seek is fire

[kallend 2,106]

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... and as far as Lt.Col. West is conserned he did not tourture that man, he just gave him an incentive to give up the goods
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You may well be correct. The proper way to find out is called "due process", not "trial by internet".

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[captainpooby 0]

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... and as far as Lt.Col. West is conserned he did not tourture that man, he just gave him an incentive to give up the goods
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You may well be correct. The proper way to find out is called "due process", not "trial by internet".

He is a man of true honor. He sacrificed himself for his troops. Threw himself on the grenade if you will.
If they punish him in any way it will be a travesty of justice.
The guy deserves a medal. I would have capped the guy if it saved one life.

[bodypilot90 0]

Army Lt. Col. Allen B. West's e mail addy

allen.west@us.army.mil

his wife's e mail

angelawest877@msn.com

[kallend 2,106]

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... and as far as Lt.Col. West is conserned he did not tourture that man, he just gave him an incentive to give up the goods
.

You may well be correct. The proper way to find out is called "due process", not "trial by internet".

He is a man of true honor. He sacrificed himself for his troops. Threw himself on the grenade if you will.
If they punish him in any way it will be a travesty of justice.
The guy deserves a medal. I would have capped the guy if it saved one life.

Can we take that to mean that you have no faith in the US system of justice, or the UCMJ is wrong, or that you do not believe in due process? Or is there some other explanation why you think your verdict is superior to that which will come from due process in this case?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

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Army Lt. Col. Allen B. West's e mail addy

allen.west@us.army.mil

his wife's e mail

angelawest877@msn.com

for the Nth time, it's LTC West. Lt. Col. is Air Force

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[LoudDan 0]

You've got my support

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[freeflir29 0]

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Can we take that to mean that you have no faith in the US system of justice, or the UCMJ is wrong, or that you do not believe in due process?

It's the fact that Col West has already lost. Now it's just a matter of how bad. No matter what his career is now done. He will have to spend MAJOR bucks out of pocket if he wants a good attorney. About $10,000 JUST for the Courts Martial plus another $6000 or so for the Article 32. So he gets a Not Guilty or they just withdraw the charges. Did he really win?

[kallend 2,106]

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Can we take that to mean that you have no faith in the US system of justice, or the UCMJ is wrong, or that you do not believe in due process?

It's the fact that Col West has already lost. Now it's just a matter of how bad. No matter what his career is now done. He will have to spend MAJOR bucks out of pocket if he wants a good attorney. About $10,000 JUST for the Courts Martial plus another $6000 or so for the Article 32. So he gets a Not Guilty or they just withdraw the charges. Did he really win?

How does that NOT apply to anyone accused of any crime, rightly or wrongly, in the USA?

What if the crime is homicide and the accused is indigent? Too bad when their lawyer sleeps through the trial and the Texas Supreme Court says "too bad, he would have made no difference anyway"?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freeflir29 0]

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How does that NOT apply to anyone accused of any crime, rightly or wrongly, in the USA?

Oh...never said it didn't. I don't like the system much. The military system is particularly bad. They can waste all the money and time they want. It's not like it affects them.

[Shark 0]

Article 15 recommended

By Rowan Scarborough, The Washington Times

An Army hearing officer has recommended administrative punishment — but not a criminal court-martial — for Lt. Col. Allen B. West, who is charged with assault for firing a gun to scare a confession from an Iraqi detainee.

"It's extremely good news," said Neal Puckett, Col. West's attorney, who defended him at a pretrial hearing last month in one of Saddam Hussein's Tikrit palaces. "This is what we think the Army should have done from the very beginning."

Mr. Puckett quoted his client as saying, "Great news indeed."

The recommendation goes to Maj. Gen. Raymond Odierno, the 4th Infantry Division commander, who can accept it or reject it in favor of court-martialing Col. West or dismissing the charge.

Mr. Puckett said he was informed yesterday by the division's judge advocate that the hearing officer, Lt. Col. Jimmy Davis, recommended what is called Article 15 punishment, not a trial.

Under this procedure, Col. West would appear before Gen. Odierno. The general would be limited in his punishment options to a written reprimand, forfeiture of pay and confinement to quarters.

If court-martialed, Col. West would risk a military jury convicting him and dismissing him from the Army. A dismissal would mean losing a lifetime of retirement benefits for the married father of two children, who is based at Fort Hood, Texas.

[bodypilot90 0]

yes it's good news but bullshit all the same. here's a bit more on the Article 15 punishment.

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Col. West has submitted a retirement request to the division commander. Ultimately, that decision rests with acting Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Mr. Brownlee may retire Col. West at his current rank, or determine he did not serve honorably and retire him at the reduced rank of major.

and what did we learn

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Mr. Puckett said the Tikrit hearing exposed a weakness in coalition interrogation techniques. He said released Iraqis promptly tell other Saddam loyalists that if taken into custody they do not have to talk.
"All of the intelligence witnesses regularly expressed the fact that detainees bragged they know they don't have to talk because we can't do anything to them," Mr. Puckett said. "The bad Iraqis are ID'd by human sources. The Iraqis who are ID'd as bad guys and questioned all know we can't touch them. We can't even so much as threaten them."

Allen B. West is a hero and the Army needs more men like him.

[Kennedy 0]

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You may well be correct. The proper way to find out is called "due process", not "trial by internet".

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Can we take that to mean that you have no faith in the US system of justice, or the UCMJ is wrong, or that you do not believe in due process? Or is there some other explanation why you think your verdict is superior to that which will come from due process in this case?

kallend, you're a professor, right? So how about you take special measures to serve your students, and suddenly you are accused of rape. Tell me you would sit there happily and say "I have faith in the system." I dare you.

Besides, you've shown how much faith you have in due process with your statements in other threads - Philadelphia cop killer, anyone found guilty in Texas, etc.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[rehmwa 2]

The result sounds like a deal was struck: You retire and we'll reduce the charge to something 'safer'.

It stinks, this guy sounds like a good leader trying to do the right thing. It's ok to save lives and protect people, just as long as it's not American soldiers.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,106]

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You may well be correct. The proper way to find out is called "due process", not "trial by internet".

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Can we take that to mean that you have no faith in the US system of justice, or the UCMJ is wrong, or that you do not believe in due process? Or is there some other explanation why you think your verdict is superior to that which will come from due process in this case?

kallend, you're a professor, right? So how about you take special measures to serve your students, and suddenly you are accused of rape. Tell me you would sit there happily and say "I have faith in the system." I dare you.

Besides, you've shown how much faith you have in due process with your statements in other threads - Philadelphia cop killer, anyone found guilty in Texas, etc.

You too, with your "12 idiots" comment.

But you can't cherry pick who should be tried and who shouldn't based on whether or not you like them or their politics. Same process should apply to everyone, and if the process is broken (IMO it is) then it should be fixed.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.