kmcguffee 0 #26 December 10, 2003 That's got to be US propoganda man! Ha Ha I was the first to say it! "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #27 December 10, 2003 Tell me senor Quade, exactly what role does either the office of the President or the Vice President play in government contracting? When do either of them come into play when contracts are bid out or awarded? What are the administrative mechanisms with which they are involved? I eagerly await your answer. When you've given it, perhaps we'll take such attacks seriously. With regards to the Pentagon not giving contracts to companies from nations who opposed the war with Iraq, as long as companies from other nations are allowed to compete, I have no problem with that.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #28 December 10, 2003 QuoteWe bomb a country and give our VP's former company the lion's share of the reconstruction contracts. Yet another reason for the world to hate us. This only pertains to Primary Contractors. There is nothing to prevent sub-contraction to Non-Coalition Countries. Hence a British Company could sub all labor and materials to a French or German Company. Why would that cause the world to hate us? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #29 December 10, 2003 So then you think the Cheney / Haliburton connection is simply a coincidence?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #30 December 10, 2003 QuoteSo then you think the Cheney / Haiburton connection is simply a coincidence? The contract Cheney has with Haliburton has been explained so many times on this forum and others that it really makes me wonder why you would make such a statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #31 December 10, 2003 QuoteSo then you think the Cheney / Haliburton connection is simply a coincidence? It's that whole pesky burden of proof thing that's in your way, Quade. You've made the allegation, people are tired of hearing (seeing) it. Back it up. Until you can, don't expect to be taken seriously. Many people in politics are well connected, both politically and in the business world. Somebody always knows someone, or worked for someone, or company X... - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #32 December 10, 2003 Billions of $ and 7 month later you would expect some things to start working again. But if everything is so "lovely" why can't the US pull its troops back? Facts can always be massaged to fit what you want. A lot of numbers you use are compared to May when the war was coming to an end. That is a cheap background. Let me put some of it in context: Quoteover 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens. I do not have the data handy, but every day Iraqis who co-operate with the Americans are murdered or bystanders are getting killed in terror attacks. The crime rate is extremely high - even in areas where there is no problem with Saddam loyalists. From the BBC: “The number of deaths under suspicious circumstances or car accidents has risen sharply since the end of the war. This is due to the lack of law and order and attacks on the coalition and Iraqis working with it. Human rights groups have criticised the US military for inadequate investigations into Iraqi deaths resulting from coalition fire.” Quote... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding the pre-war average. From the BBC web site: “Water and electricity: Improvements in the water and electricity supply have been offset by disruption caused by sabotage. A consistent, clean water supply depends on a good supply of electricity to drive the pumps. Some days, Baghdad only gets two to four hours of electricity. Water pumping stations are still being looted and targeted by saboteurs.” Quote... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open Yes but (source BBC): Water treatment and raw sewage on the streets are an enormous health risk. This problem is closely related to lack of clean water and the electricity supply. Water pumping stations are still being looted and targeted by saboteurs. Cholera, dysentery and typhoid are on the rise. Medicine shortages mean 270,000 children born after the war had no immunisation. Waste water produced by 60% of Baghdadis is pumped untreated back into the Tigris. The river is the main water source for the people in the south. Left over cluster bombs and other ordinance is killing Iraqi children every day. Quote... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns. From the BBC: “There are fuel shortages in all areas in Iraq, though the situation has been improved by CPA imports of gasoline, liquid petroleum gas and diesel. Humanitarian organisations are warning of a crisis this winter due to fuel shortages.” Iraqis are now used to queuing for up to 5 hours for 20 litres of petrol…. Oil production is at 900,000 Barrels pre war it was 2.2 Million… $7M a day in oil revenues are being lost due to sabotage….. Quote...... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries. correct, but: Before the war, 60% of Iraqis depended heavily on government food hand-outs. Humanitarian organisations say the situation has only got worse. They report much higher unemployment and disruption to the food distribution programmes. Prices for some goods are up, but not all. Earnings for those in work are up dramatically. Quote...... ... Saudis will hold municipal elections. ... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents. ... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms. ... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace. An what has this to do with Iraq???? The US government is taking credit for this? Quote...... ... Saddam is gone. Now has he? AFAIK he is alive and well and according to some accounts he is organising the attacks….. Nobody is denying that progress is being made. But there are lots of problems and they are big enough to force the US to keep a major force in the country and will cost the US tax payer a lot of money. And at the moment expert can not see the country being able to run itself.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #33 December 10, 2003 Research the history of LOGCAP - an Army program - and the contracts Halliburton was awarded with regards to it.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #34 December 10, 2003 Have you considered that SH let 100,000 felons out of jail and they now find themselves in a position of having families to support? Now everyone in their town knows they are untrustworthy and they can't find work. Along comes Mr. Bin Laden and Mr. Saddam offering a bounty on American Soldiers? No surprise what they choose is it? How long do you think it would take to round up 100,000 criminals who were released in L.A. and were paid to kill cops by gang leaders? Would you be this critical of the Police because they hadn't been able to find all of them in 7 months? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #35 December 10, 2003 QuoteHave you considered that SH let 100,000 felons out of jail and they now find themselves in a position of having families to support? Now everyone in their town knows they are untrustworthy and they can't find work. Along comes Mr. Bin Laden and Mr. Saddam offering a bounty on American Soldiers? No surprise what they choose is it? How long do you think it would take to round up 100,000 criminals who were released in L.A. and were paid to kill cops by gang leaders? Would you be this critical of the Police because they hadn't been able to find all of them in 7 months? You were the one using a bunch of very selective "statistics" and "facts" to show how "great" things are in Iraq and I was only pointing out that this way you can prove nearly anything - i.e. 2 can play the game. We all know the situation is complex and difficult. We also know some progress has been made. So best to not list a long list of "simple" one liners trying to "prove" things. That was my point.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #36 December 10, 2003 Oh, please give me a break!!! I only posted true statements that "highlighted" the other side of what going on in Iraq. I only did it in response to yours, Quades and others oversimplifications, one-sidedness and constant whining about how "horrible" thing are in Iraq. So after the constant battering of the war by the aboved mentioned you want to bash me about listing "TRUE" accomplishments that present a positive view? Puhleeeez. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #37 December 10, 2003 Gravitymaster - 1, Mickey - 0 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #38 December 10, 2003 Quote It's that whole pesky burden of proof thing that's in your way, Quade. You've made the allegation, people are tired of hearing (seeing) it. Back it up. Until you can, don't expect to be taken seriously. Ya know, I don't really make this stuff up. In the following article, you'll see that the Congressional Research Service reported that unexercised stock options and deferred salary "are among those benefits described by the Office of Government Ethics as 'retained ties' or 'linkages' to one's former employer." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/politics/main575356.shtml This is our own government, not just me, saying Cheney has ties to Halliburton. A further quote from the story: Quote Cheney was chief executive officer of Halliburton from 1995 through August 2000. The company's KBR subsidiary is the main government contractor working to restore Iraq's oil industry in an open-ended contract that was awarded without competitive bidding. I dunno guys, doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Further reading material: http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6288 http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6028 http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6008quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #39 December 10, 2003 Tell you what Quade, why don't you give us a list of American Companies that are "qualified' to contract for Iraqi Reconstuction that are being left out because they "don't" have ties to someone in Gov't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #40 December 10, 2003 Having a little trouble parsing that sentance -- especially in light of the subject of this thread. I never suggested that other U.S. companies were being left out in the cold, only that: the Cheney / Halliburton connection exists, by locking out countries that oppose the war in Iraq we look scandalous because of the connection and we do not create any further support for our efforts. In other words, we look like we invaded Iraq for the profit of our leaders. This, does not make us look good and does not gain us any support in our efforts to fight terrorism. As you recall, that was the stated purpose of going to war in Iraq.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #41 December 10, 2003 Paul, The countries that opposed the war knew that they would not benefit from the rebuilding. I think it's great that they now have a financial interest to go along with their moral interest. Like they say in Texas, "Tough shit." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #42 December 10, 2003 You did suggest it was improper to contract with a company that had no ties to Washington AND had the type of experience necessary to perform the needed reconstuction services to rebuild Iraq. In a perfect ideological world, yes. In the real world, no. With the exception of career politicians, most who make the decision to serve their country politically come out of either the military of the corporate world. So why is it such a surprise they may have close contacts with the companies they did business with when they were CEO's? In addition, I fail to understand why you liberals have such a problem with a Corporation making money. Corp. make money, they hire people and they pay bonus's, give people raises and pay dividends to their shareholders. Isn't creation of jobs something the left has been bashing GWB about for 2 years? Oh, now I guess they aren't the "RIGHT" kind of jobs, huh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #43 December 10, 2003 Your opinion and fair enough. I couldn't ask for anything else.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #44 December 10, 2003 QuotePaul, The countries that opposed the war knew that they would not benefit from the rebuilding. I think it's great that they now have a financial interest to go along with their moral interest. Like they say in Texas, "Tough shit." I agree. Besides, who would protect these contractors from non-coalition countries? Their own Gov't refused to send troops. Are U.S. Forces supposed to protect them? I don't think so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #45 December 10, 2003 QuoteIn addition, I fail to understand why you liberals have such a problem with a Corporation making money. I have no problems with companies making money as long as they do so in a way that is fair and honorable. If Pixar wants to make a bundle of cash by making a film about talking fish -- go right ahead! If a company wants to exploit people in a sweatshop in Bangladesh -- yeah I have a problem with that. If a media company wants to start a war so they can reap profits -- yeah I have a problem with that. If a company has ties to people that can start wars and both can reap profits from the deaths of innocent people as well as our own soldiers . . . well, I have to at least queston the possiblity. Is it just me or should we simply and blindly follow the leader?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #46 December 10, 2003 QuoteI only posted true statements that "highlighted" the other side of what going on in Iraq. This can be debated. As I documented in my post many of the “one liners” you copied from somewhere were only "half the picture" - I documented some of the other "half". You even counted a Nobel peace price and an election in Saudi as being a result of the invasion in Iraq, which is ludicrous. QuoteI only did it in response to yours, Quades and others oversimplifications, one-sidedness and constant whining about how "horrible" thing are in Iraq. So after the constant battering of the war by the aboved mentioned you want to bash me about listing "TRUE" accomplishments that present a positive view? Puhleeeez. Please document where I have done this. Before you accuse people of "oversimplifications, one-sidedness and constant whining " better get your facts right first. Some of the statements you used - especially where current numbers where compared to May numbers when the infrastructure just had been "flattened" by US air attacks - were oversimplifications and construed. The number of casualties in Iraq, the sabotage and the number of attacks are facts. That the US has found the post-war situation difficult and not as "planned" is un-deniable - even the administration has admitted that. Many people are concerned that the security situation will make it very difficult to establish a stable and democratic Iraq in the short to medium term. This, combined with the lack of evidence that the "reasons" for invading used prior to the war were "real" has led many people to criticize the actions of the US administration. The reconstruction efforts so far have not been questioned by anybody as far as I know. So try to stick to the facts.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #47 December 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteIn addition, I fail to understand why you liberals have such a problem with a Corporation making money. Quote: "I have no problems with companies making money as long as they do so in a way that is fair and honorable". ____________________________________________________ Fair and honorable by who's standards. I though it wasn't right for us to impose our morality on other countries. ____________________________________________________ Quote: If a company wants to exploit people in a sweatshop in Bangladesh -- yeah I have a problem with that. ____________________________________________________ Even if it's in full compliance with the laws of that country? I must say again, I thought you liberals were against us imposing our morality and values on other countries? Do you think the appropriate response is a gov't or citizen boycott? Own anything made by Nike? ____________________________________________________ Quote: If a media company wants to start a war so they can reap profits -- yeah I have a problem with that. ____________________________________________________ As do I. ____________________________________________________ Quote: In a company has ties to people that can start wars and both can reap profits from the deaths of innocent people as well as our own soldiers . . . well, I have to at least queston the possiblity. ____________________________________________________ Questioning the possibility, yes. Insinuating something without any proof, no. I seem to remember reading Paul Quade telling people on this very site not to make any judgements until we know the facts. My point is a connection isn't necessarily an unlawful collusion. ____________________________________________________ Quote: Is it just me or should we simply and blindly follow the leader? ____________________________________________________ Nobody is suggesting that. Only suggesting you tone down the bashing and insinuation without any facts in the same way you would advise if we were talking about a fatality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,075 #48 December 10, 2003 >Ultimately, we are responsible for the security of our nation, not >the rest of the world. Yet we invade places like Iraq to liberate the people. Interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #49 December 10, 2003 Here Mikkey. I think Paul Bremer has a little more credibility and first hand knowledge than you. I suppose you will accuse him of oversimplifying? http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2003/n10102003_200310101.html Edited to add: I can't get the Url button to make this clicky. Can someone else do it for me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #50 December 10, 2003 anyone who beleived that iraq was going to be easy should put there heads back in the sandwww.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
