quade 4 #51 December 10, 2003 QuoteOnly suggesting you tone down the bashing and insinuation without any facts in the same way you would advise if we were talking about a fatality. Two points: When I report here that our own government says a tie exists I call it a fact and you call it bashing. Further -- fatalities, especially skydiving fatalities as discussed on this web site, are a completely different issue with issues of privacy to be considered. Business relationships with governement officals do not have that same privilege. Please don't muddy the issues. I would hope we can all see the differences.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #52 December 10, 2003 http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2003/n10102003_200310101.html www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #53 December 10, 2003 Of course, that statement by Bremer is now almost exactly 2 months old. Is it still valid? Would Bremer feel comfortable walking around without a flack jacket outside of the "Green Zone" in Baghdad? I notice the State Department hasn't updated it's web site for quite awhile with any positive news.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #54 December 10, 2003 Quote: This can be debated. As I documented in my post many of the “one liners” you copied from somewhere were only "half the picture" - I documented some of the other "half". Please document where I have done this. Before you accuse people of "oversimplifications, one-sidedness and constant whining " better get your facts right first. ____________________________________________________ O.K. how about we use your statement in the above paragraph where you admit you only documented "half" the picture ____________________________________________________ Quote: Some of the statements you used - especially where current numbers where compared to May numbers when the infrastructure just had been "flattened" by US air attacks - were oversimplifications and construed. ____________________________________________________ Nope, wrong again the numbers were Pre-war. That means before the war started in case you didn't understand. ___________________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n2skdvn 0 #55 December 10, 2003 Found what i think of these debates lately.if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN my site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #56 December 10, 2003 So, am I Itchy or Scratchy?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n2skdvn 0 #57 December 10, 2003 Just wanted to put a pause in the fire fight with a funny BTW your the one with the hammerif my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN my site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #58 December 10, 2003 N2, I appreciated the break....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
souleh 0 #59 December 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteWe bomb a country and give our VP's former company the lion's share of the reconstruction contracts. Yet another reason for the world to hate us. Why should we send billions of dollars to countries that did nothing to help and some even aided Iraq's former regime? Yeah, that's better than giving it to our allies. Popular opinion in France or Germany really helps our economy? While obviously giving contracts to countries who AIDED the iraq regieme should be out of the question, ultimately it is not you who will be paying for it. Iraq will be paying for the reconstruction of its country by means of the oil and natural resources there. It should be up to the people (or elected leaders there) who can and can't have their contracts. It seems to go against the whole moral of the war itself having the US dictate who can and can't help. After all, it was heralded as a war against terrorism - something that bound the world.. and when you're talking about things on a world stage such as this, you can't suddenly decide to play with the odds. Haven't you noticed how your oil prices have dropped twice since the end of the war? Sure, you've got to pay for the war itself, as it isn't cheap; but then dictating what can and can't happen seems to be morally contradictary. Just my thoughts 'buttplugs? where?' - geno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #60 December 10, 2003 Quote . . . ultimately it is not you who will be paying for it. Iraq will be paying for the reconstruction of its country by means of the oil and natural resources there. Perhaps at some time in the as of yet unforseeable future, but for right now a good chunk of the money goes from the U.S. tax payers right into Halliburton's pockets. This just in. A few notable quotes: Quote The Pentagon's Defense Energy Support Center pays $1.08 to $1.19 per gallon for the gas it imports from Kuwait, Congressional aides said. That includes the price of the gas and its transportation costs. Quote In recent weeks, the costs of importing fuel from Kuwait have risen. Figures provided recently to Congressional investigators by the corps show that Halliburton was charging as much as $3.06 per gallon for fuel from Kuwait in late November. Quote In the appropriations bill signed by Mr. Bush last month, taxpayers will subsidize all gas importation costs beginning early next year. In an interview on Tuesday, Mr. Waxman responded to the latest information on to costs of the Halliburton contract. "It's inexcusable that Americans are being charged absurdly high prices to buy gasoline for Iraqis and outrageous that the White House is letting it happen," he said.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
souleh 0 #61 December 10, 2003 Like I said, ultimately. I can see and accept that currently the money is partially (or wholly, I dont have the full facts) funded by US tax payers. But this is meant to be the rebuilding of Iraq. Not the cultivation of a foreign economic resource of sole benefit to the US. 'buttplugs? where?' - geno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #62 December 10, 2003 Quoteanyone who beleived that iraq was going to be easy should put there heads back in the sand I don't have time to do the search right now, but I clearly remember seeing interviews prior to the war with neo-cons including administration members telling us that it would be.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #63 December 10, 2003 QuoteO.K. how about we use your statement in the above paragraph where you admit you only documented "half" the picture Well I never stated that all the statements were wrong, just said they were only telling one side of the story and not giving the whole picture. I then put some context around it - try to read the post again. These things are complex and I said all the time that progress has been made. You seem to have problems seeing the full picture. In other words, it’s great if schools are being re-opened and electricity restored. On the other side it makes it all difficult if people get blown up walking the streets and the electricity supply constantly sabotaged. If you do not control the security situation the rebuilding of the infrastructure is very problematic.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #64 December 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteIf the US wants to "internationalise" the situation and get this under control they need help from countries like France and Germany. The US has been trying to get their help. They've refused numerous times. Are you insinuating that we need to "pay them off" to get their help? That doesn't sound very "peace loving, let's all live together, kumbaya" to me. Hmm... I thought that Germany, France etc. would gladly help as much as needed - IF the whole thing was ran by UN. This is something US does not want to do (...and I wonder why...? ) Do you think that situation would get better/worse if the operation would be under UN mandate with international UN troops? I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I think that the road US chose is a long and rocky one... IMHO of course... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #65 December 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteO.K. how about we use your statement in the above paragraph where you admit you only documented "half" the picture Well I never stated that all the statements were wrong, just said they were only telling one side of the story and not giving the whole picture. I then put some context around it - try to read the post again. These things are complex and I said all the time that progress has been made. You seem to have problems seeing the full picture. ____________________________________________________ Reply: How could I have trouble seeing the whole picture? Every time I turn on my T.V. or radio or sign on to this site or many others, all I hear are the naysayers and bomb throwers whinning and complaining. The purpose of the post you are referring to was to add some balance to the "whole picture". To say it isn't all bad. With this said, I find it interesting how you think "I" don't see the whole picture. ____________________________________________________ In other words, it’s great if schools are being re-opened and electricity restored. On the other side it makes it all difficult if people get blown up walking the streets and the electricity supply constantly sabotaged. ____________________________________________________ Reply: We all know that Mikkey. Do you really think it's necessary to keep reminding people. The media does a great job of it hourly. ____________________________________________________ If you do not control the security situation the rebuilding of the infrastructure is very problematic. ____________________________________________________ Reply: The people in Govt. are well aware of this fact and are doing the best they can give the task at hand. As we both agree, it's complex and sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #66 December 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteOnly suggesting you tone down the bashing and insinuation without any facts in the same way you would advise if we were talking about a fatality. Two points: When I report here that our own government says a tie exists I call it a fact and you call it bashing. ____________________________________________________ reply: Read it again. I wasn't referring to that specific statement you made. ____________________________________________________ Further -- fatalities, especially skydiving fatalities as discussed on this web site, are a completely different issue with issues of privacy to be considered. Business relationships with governement officals do not have that same privilege. ____________________________________________________ reply: Thats only part of the reason. The other part is we don't want to draw any conclusions until "all the facts are in". Nice try though. ____________________________________________________ Please don't muddy the issues. I would hope we can all see the differences. ____________________________________________________ reply: Too funny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #67 December 10, 2003 Not only do I think it is funny I agree with it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #68 December 10, 2003 QuoteBut if everything is so "lovely" why can't the US pull its troops back? Because we did that last time allowing Sadham to slaughter ten's of thousands of IRaqi's... We must finish the job and not let the Iraqi people down.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #69 December 10, 2003 QuoteOh, please give me a break!!! I only posted true statements that "highlighted" the other side of what going on in Iraq. I only did it in response to yours, Quades and others oversimplifications, one-sidedness and constant whining about how "horrible" thing are in Iraq. So after the constant battering of the war by the aboved mentioned you want to bash me about listing "TRUE" accomplishments that present a positive view? Puhleeeez. Here here,,, !! Yep... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #70 December 10, 2003 QuoteYet we invade places like Iraq to liberate the people. Interesting. So you think we have INVADED Iraq? You do not think him gassing millions of his own people justified action? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #71 December 10, 2003 This is all over the Canadian news. People are asking why Canada is contributing hundreds of millions of dollars to the reconstruction when Canadian companies aren't allowed to participiate. I imagine either the rule will not last, or America will have a much harder time raising funds to pay for it. The majority of the afluent world opposed the war, exactly the same governments the US are asking to pay for it. Which way do they want it? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #72 December 10, 2003 QuoteOf course, that statement by Bremer is now almost exactly 2 months old. Is it still valid? ____________________________________________________ reply: Want a few updates do you? Gasoline- Pre-war production Peak (Feb. 03, 2003) 2.5 MBPD Post-war Peak (nov. 02, 2003) 2.255 MBPD Weekly Avg. 2.15 MBPD Education: 72 million new schoolbooks delivered 64,00 teachers 5,000 Principals 5 American Universities get grants to create partnerships with Iraqi Universities. 25 Iraqi students get Fullbright Scholarships. Security: 164,00 Iraqi Security Forces deployed. 4500 more in training. ____________________________________________________ Would Bremer feel comfortable walking around without a flack jacket outside of the "Green Zone" in Baghdad? _____________________________________________________ reply: Not yet. Would Roosevelt feel comfortable walking around Berlin 7 months after WW2 ? ____________________________________________________ I notice the State Department hasn't updated it's web site for quite awhile with any positive news. ____________________________________________________ reply: How much more would you like? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #73 December 10, 2003 WASHINGTON, Dec. 10 — The Pentagon’s decision to formally bar companies from countries opposed to the Iraq war from bidding on 26 reconstruction contracts drew sharp criticism from some of those nations on Wednesday. Just goes to show you some people want something for nothing... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 569 #74 December 10, 2003 Yep - but funny how the US wants those very same people to "donate"... Sorry but it's my tax bill (UK) that is going to suffer, but the US/UK went to war WE should pay and not ask others either...Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kiltboy 0 #75 December 10, 2003 I can understand where you are coming from. Several of the countries at the donors conference agreed to donate to a trust fund that was independant of the US administration so they could distance themselves from the military action. They also wanted an independent or Iraqi organisation to distribute the funds. Interesting to note the number of UK companies taht received reconstruction work or to actually examine how much influence the UK has in what is going on outwith the UK zone of operations. 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Gravitymaster 0 #65 December 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteO.K. how about we use your statement in the above paragraph where you admit you only documented "half" the picture Well I never stated that all the statements were wrong, just said they were only telling one side of the story and not giving the whole picture. I then put some context around it - try to read the post again. These things are complex and I said all the time that progress has been made. You seem to have problems seeing the full picture. ____________________________________________________ Reply: How could I have trouble seeing the whole picture? Every time I turn on my T.V. or radio or sign on to this site or many others, all I hear are the naysayers and bomb throwers whinning and complaining. The purpose of the post you are referring to was to add some balance to the "whole picture". To say it isn't all bad. With this said, I find it interesting how you think "I" don't see the whole picture. ____________________________________________________ In other words, it’s great if schools are being re-opened and electricity restored. On the other side it makes it all difficult if people get blown up walking the streets and the electricity supply constantly sabotaged. ____________________________________________________ Reply: We all know that Mikkey. Do you really think it's necessary to keep reminding people. The media does a great job of it hourly. ____________________________________________________ If you do not control the security situation the rebuilding of the infrastructure is very problematic. ____________________________________________________ Reply: The people in Govt. are well aware of this fact and are doing the best they can give the task at hand. As we both agree, it's complex and sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #66 December 10, 2003 QuoteQuoteOnly suggesting you tone down the bashing and insinuation without any facts in the same way you would advise if we were talking about a fatality. Two points: When I report here that our own government says a tie exists I call it a fact and you call it bashing. ____________________________________________________ reply: Read it again. I wasn't referring to that specific statement you made. ____________________________________________________ Further -- fatalities, especially skydiving fatalities as discussed on this web site, are a completely different issue with issues of privacy to be considered. Business relationships with governement officals do not have that same privilege. ____________________________________________________ reply: Thats only part of the reason. The other part is we don't want to draw any conclusions until "all the facts are in". Nice try though. ____________________________________________________ Please don't muddy the issues. I would hope we can all see the differences. ____________________________________________________ reply: Too funny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #67 December 10, 2003 Not only do I think it is funny I agree with it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #68 December 10, 2003 QuoteBut if everything is so "lovely" why can't the US pull its troops back? Because we did that last time allowing Sadham to slaughter ten's of thousands of IRaqi's... We must finish the job and not let the Iraqi people down.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #69 December 10, 2003 QuoteOh, please give me a break!!! I only posted true statements that "highlighted" the other side of what going on in Iraq. I only did it in response to yours, Quades and others oversimplifications, one-sidedness and constant whining about how "horrible" thing are in Iraq. So after the constant battering of the war by the aboved mentioned you want to bash me about listing "TRUE" accomplishments that present a positive view? Puhleeeez. Here here,,, !! Yep... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #70 December 10, 2003 QuoteYet we invade places like Iraq to liberate the people. Interesting. So you think we have INVADED Iraq? You do not think him gassing millions of his own people justified action? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #71 December 10, 2003 This is all over the Canadian news. People are asking why Canada is contributing hundreds of millions of dollars to the reconstruction when Canadian companies aren't allowed to participiate. I imagine either the rule will not last, or America will have a much harder time raising funds to pay for it. The majority of the afluent world opposed the war, exactly the same governments the US are asking to pay for it. Which way do they want it? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #72 December 10, 2003 QuoteOf course, that statement by Bremer is now almost exactly 2 months old. Is it still valid? ____________________________________________________ reply: Want a few updates do you? Gasoline- Pre-war production Peak (Feb. 03, 2003) 2.5 MBPD Post-war Peak (nov. 02, 2003) 2.255 MBPD Weekly Avg. 2.15 MBPD Education: 72 million new schoolbooks delivered 64,00 teachers 5,000 Principals 5 American Universities get grants to create partnerships with Iraqi Universities. 25 Iraqi students get Fullbright Scholarships. Security: 164,00 Iraqi Security Forces deployed. 4500 more in training. ____________________________________________________ Would Bremer feel comfortable walking around without a flack jacket outside of the "Green Zone" in Baghdad? _____________________________________________________ reply: Not yet. Would Roosevelt feel comfortable walking around Berlin 7 months after WW2 ? ____________________________________________________ I notice the State Department hasn't updated it's web site for quite awhile with any positive news. ____________________________________________________ reply: How much more would you like? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #73 December 10, 2003 WASHINGTON, Dec. 10 — The Pentagon’s decision to formally bar companies from countries opposed to the Iraq war from bidding on 26 reconstruction contracts drew sharp criticism from some of those nations on Wednesday. Just goes to show you some people want something for nothing... Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 569 #74 December 10, 2003 Yep - but funny how the US wants those very same people to "donate"... Sorry but it's my tax bill (UK) that is going to suffer, but the US/UK went to war WE should pay and not ask others either...Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #75 December 10, 2003 I can understand where you are coming from. Several of the countries at the donors conference agreed to donate to a trust fund that was independant of the US administration so they could distance themselves from the military action. They also wanted an independent or Iraqi organisation to distribute the funds. Interesting to note the number of UK companies taht received reconstruction work or to actually examine how much influence the UK has in what is going on outwith the UK zone of operations. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
