Bowling For Columbine

[billvon 2,998]

>It was more than just protecting his bank account, it was also
> personal protection. They guy could have punched out the window
> and assaulted the driver.

Putting one's foot on the accelerator will remove that possibility. He had a gun; he chose to use it (as a threat) rather than remove himself from the threat. That's his choice. I was just using it to refute the claim that most gun owners will use their guns only to protect themselves from being killed. This gun owner chose it over an easy escape because it was easier for him - he would be able to complete his ATM transaction and close his transaction to prevent possible theft. And again, that's fine, but it's certainly not using a gun to protect yourself from death - it's using a gun to protect your bank account.

>That's right - you don't know. So why should we put our life in the
>hands of a criminal? Do you want to trust them with your life? Not me.

Why do you trust that a criminal will not get your gun, or that he will not use it once he gets it? There have been a great many cases of criminals getting their hands on a legal gun and using it against the owner. I know, I know, it couldn't happen to _you_ but the threat is there. You simply prefer to believe that your gun gives you more protection than liability. That's your right; but don't kid yourself that your gun _always_ makes you safer. It just might kill you.

I've been attacked in Times Square. He put his arm around my neck and went for my wallet. I dropped him (I actually thought he was someone else) and he got up and ran away. I was at zero risk for being shot with my own gun, since I did not have one on me. You would be at a much higher risk for being shot with your own gun in that situation. And you are free to take that risk if you choose, but I will take my outcome over the unknown outcome of trying to draw a gun in a crowd of 150,000 people any day.

[mnischalke 0]

Quote

Oh and while you're at it, tell the families of the countless children who die each year because their irresponsible parents left a loaded gun lying around...

Actually, it is a number. Not countless at all.

For instance, in 1998, there were 866 accidental firearms deaths--TOTAL--among children and adults.

In 2000, firearms were involved in 86 accidental deaths of children below the age of 14. Those were 86 of the 5,600 deaths caused by unintentional injuries in this age group.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

Quote

There have been a great many cases of criminals getting their hands on a legal gun and using it against the owner.

I am sick of this totally fictional scenario. Show me the numbers and incidences.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

So who is it trying to scare the public with irrational fears? You may not make me fear the "evil black man" but you're trying to make me fear the "evil gun owner".

I'm not trying to take away your gun (I'm not that naive to think that guns will go away). But I am trying to open up people's minds to the thought that they aren't in as much danger as they constantly think they are in and that resorting to carrying and using a gun isn't always necessary.

Now for sure, you living in Philadelphia are exposed to more potential violence than myself living in Boulder CO. And I choose to live in a part of the world where I don't feel theatened by other people. Not everyone has the luxury of choosing where they live. But most do. And the armed people of suburbia America are over reacting to the treat of violence from the evil black man (imho).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Keep telling yourself that America does not have a problem. And don't forget to tell the families of one of the 10000+ people which are murdered each and every year at the hands of a gun that there is no problem.

No one has said that there isn't a problem, so why do you paraphrase our position that way?

The number of gun murder victims last year was 9,369, not greater than 10,000. You could at least get your facts correct.

Guns don't murder anyone. People do. I know that's a worn cliche, but it is necessary as long as you keep blaming inanimate objects for the behavior of criminals.

What is your solution?

[goose491 0]

Quote

Now, please don't call me a racist for pointing to FBI statistics which are factual.

Not racist at all! The sats don't lie... but how does it get to be that way? That's the golden question.

Quote

I don't believe that skin color makes one more likely to commit violent crime. However, things like poverty does. Blacks my suffer from poverty at a higher rate than whites - I don't know.

Sure, now we're getting somewhere... ghettos/hoods, welfare (well-work for release welfare) So it's not the skin but the living condition... so why are all the blacks in such poor living conditions? What puts and keeps all these black families in poverty?

This is much like the arguing we've been doing over guns. "It's not the guns that kill."... "I know, guns are inanimate so it must be the people. Why do people kill eachother so much in the U.S.?".... "It's not the guns that kill."

Quote

However, and for whatever reasons, the perception of blacks being more likely to commit crime than whites, is true.

Careful there. Just like flipping a coin 99 times and getting 'heads' doesn't change your chances (50/50) of getting 'heads' on the 100th flip, so the fact that 43% of arrested violent crime perpetrator were black doesn't change the violent tendencies of the one black man standing next to you at work... or sitting next to you at a restaurant... or.....

Again, I would present your stats as a symptom of the problem and not any indication of the source.

Vicious circle?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

I was just using it to refute the claim that most gun owners will use their guns only to protect themselves from being killed.

So you were using a single isolated incident to refute a statement about what most people would do?

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Now for sure, you living in Philadelphia are exposed to more potential violence than myself living in Boulder CO. And I choose to live in a part of the world where I don't feel theatened by other people. Not everyone has the luxury of choosing where they live. But most do.

So, we should allow ourselves to be dictated to by violent criminals? I choose to live where I do because I like the area. I like having restaurants, hardware stores, clothing stores, bars, dry cleaners and work within a few blocks of my house. I should give that up because someone wants to remove that right from me?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

The number of gun murder victims last year was 9,369, not greater than 10,000. You could at least get your facts correct.

Good god ... I can't believe you're arguing that I got my stats wrong by about 1%. I guess there is no problem in America as only 9369 people died last year at the hands of a gun. Good grief.

Quote

What is your solution?

To educate people to think twice before they resort to firearms. What's yours?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I'm not trying to take away your gun. But I am trying to open up people's minds to the thought that they aren't in as much danger as they constantly think they are in and that resorting to carrying and using a gun isn't always necessary.

Fair enough, as long as you are willing to allow people the freedom to decide for themselves, based upon their own individual circumstances. No one else should decide for them.

[billvon 2,998]

>So you were using a single isolated incident to refute a statement
>about what most people would do?

No, just what people here on DZ.com _actually_ do.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I guess there is no problem in America as only 9369 people died last year at the hands of a gun. Good grief.

There you go again. I just chided you only a few minutes ago for trying to stuff words in my mouth that don't fit, and here you go and do it yet again.

You're only making your own arguments look foolish with your continuing propensity to do this.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Okay, if you do agree that there is a problem, what's your solution?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mnischalke 0]

***>So you were using a single isolated incident to refute a statement
>about what most people would do?

No, just what people here on DZ.com _actually_ do. ***

And who or what are you to judge how Aggiedave handled his situation? What do you know which lets you use his case as an argument for your point?

I have been involved in a similar situation, unarmed, at a gas station in Jax, FL in 1991. I was not armed. I was simply trying to get a few winks before getting back on the road to my Marine buddy's parent's place.

I was woken up by my buddies jumping into my car, yelling to get the car started and drive. I started the car when a man approached my driver's side window and put his hand on my steering wheel. I didn't want to drag the guy, so I left the clutch in, as he proceeded to tell me to shut the car off and get the fuck out of the car. I noticed his tshirt was bloody. I chose not to listen, dumped the clutch and employed every one of my Laser turbo's 250 horses to get the hell out of there. A few bullets passed my vehicle, but I guess crackheads don't spend too much time on their marksmanship. Had he been a better shot, I, or any of the people in my car, may not be around today to tell the story.

As it turned out, unbeknownst to me, in my blindspot, I had a gun to my head only moments earlier. I guess I got lucky that night. Did Dave see this guy's hands? Did he have a clue as to what was in them? Did he know if this person was a distraction from another person who may be coming up to the driver's door? Was his life in jeopardy? Who are you to say?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[PhillyKev 0]

Bill:

Quote

I was just using it to refute the claim that most gun owners will use their guns only to protect themselves from being killed.

Kevin:

Quote

So you were using a single isolated incident to refute a statement about what most people would do?

Bill:

Quote

No, just what people here on DZ.com _actually_ do.

My point is that you WERE trying to use an isolated incident to "prove" the "bad side" of gun ownership. And that's what most anti-gun people do. I know you claim not to be anti-gun, but you sure post enough in that vain for that claim to not be taken seriously. Unless you're just trolling, but I thought that was against the moderator credo.

[billvon 2,998]

>My point is that you WERE trying to use an isolated incident
>to "prove" the "bad side" of gun ownership.

Sorry, my bad. Figured I'd use an actual incident reported by 'one of our own' - these incidents are, fortunately, rare, so they won't provide a statistically valid sampling.

>And that's what most anti-gun people do. I know you claim not to
>be anti-gun, but you sure post enough in that vain for that claim to
> not be taken seriously.

I don't really care what you think of my claims, honestly.

You can buy a big pickup truck with a massive diesel, jack up the suspension, buy big tires for it - that's fine. But if you tell me it's "to be safe" I'm going to laugh at you. Those sorts of vehicles maneuver poorly, roll often, and consistently score very poorly on crash tests - even if they can drive over a Yugo. The "to be safe" claim is nonsense; it's a rationalization used to justify one's purchase.

But tell me you're going to buy a big truck because you think it's cool, and you want one, and you don't care much about the environment, then that's fine. You can do whatever you want, and you're being honest about the reasons.

Similarly, if you buy a lot of guns because you want them, great. Carry them around if you so choose, and as long as they are not used in crimes, no problem. But to claim that a gun is only used to protect the owner from being killed, and they prevent crimes of all sorts being perpetrated against you - nonsense. It's a dangerous tool that can hurt you as well as harm you. In many cases it may help. In some cases it does more harm than good. In some cases it can actually get you _into_ trouble that you otherwise wouldn't have been in.

I think the people who are against gun ownership because of all the guns walking around out there killing people are missing the point. The people who think that arming everyone would cut down crime and make the inner cities safe are also fooling themselves. Guns are dangerous tools that can harm you as well has help you, and should be treated as such.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

I think the people who are against gun ownership because of all the guns walking around out there killing people are missing the point. The people who think that arming everyone would cut down crime and make the inner cities safe are also fooling themselves. Guns are dangerous tools that can harm you as well has help you, and should be treated as such.

I agree with that 100%.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

What is your solution?

Still waiting to hear about your solution. If there is a problem, then you must have an idea as to how to make it better. But your silence makes me think that you think there is no problem of humans killing other humans.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Quote

What is your solution?

Still waiting to hear about your solution. If there is a problem, then you must have an idea as to how to make it better. But your silence makes me think that you think there is no problem of humans killing other humans.

Umm...if he had a solution, he'd probably be a millionaire and famous. Obviously there isn't a simple solution, or else it would already be solved. If you're solution is get rid of guns, you are fooling yourself. That's the point.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I already told you that I wasn't naive enough to think that guns would <<>> go away. What I'm trying to do is get people to think twice about resorting to weapons to resolve their disputes. And I'm not referring to the standard gas station or ATM hold up scenario which have been shown here. I'm talking about the bloke who sleeps with a gun because they feel someone will break into their home while they sleep. I'm talking about the bloke who carries a gun in their car and then uses it when the slightest hint of road rage wields it's ugly eye. I'm talking about the bloke who keeps loaded weapons at home in easy reach of those who do not have the maturity to know better.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PhillyKev 0]

And you're talking about the miniscule minority of gun owners. You're buying into the media hype and the fear they are trying to evoke. The gun accidents and gun idiots are no less exhagerated in the media than the crimes you say are over exposed.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

You're buying into the media hype and the fear they are trying to evoke.

Dude guns were invented to kill living creatures (mainly humans). Scared of the media hype? I think not. Scared of the devaluation of life. You better believe I am. If you have such a low regard for life, then I am truly sorry for you. I for one respect life. The person who over reacts to a situation, and pulls out a gun to resolve the issue has no respect for life.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

to claim that a gun is only used to protect the owner from being killed, and they prevent crimes of all sorts being perpetrated against you - nonsense.

The nonsense is in that statement, above. Just check out all the real-life news stories of average citizens using guns successfully in self-defense.

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

Quote

You're buying into the media hype and the fear they are trying to evoke.

Dude guns were invented to kill living creatures (mainly humans). Scared of the media hype? I think not. Scared of the devaluation of life. You better believe I am. If you have such a low regard for life, then I am truly sorry for you. I for one respect life. The person who over reacts to a situation, and pulls out a gun to resolve the issue has no respect for life.

Really, how did you make the leap from gun owner to 'doesn't value human life'? That's sort of like a whuffo making the leap from skydiver to 'doesn't value his own life'. Isn't it?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

It's a dangerous tool (a gun) that can hurt you as well as harm you. In many cases it may help. In some cases it does more harm than good. In some cases it can actually get you _into_ trouble that you otherwise wouldn't have been in.

The same can be said of reserve parachutes and automatic activation devices. Maybe we should not allow skydivers to use them, because they might hurt themselves by misusing the products, or by accidentally deploying them when they shouldn't!

Ban Reserve Parachutes - Save Skydiver's Lives!

Then again, maybe we should just let people choose for themselves, and do what we can to ensure that they make informed decisions and operate their equipment safely and intelligently.

Nah, we can't trust the public to do that.

Ban Guns and Reserve Parachutes!