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Hey Justin! It's good of you to pursue this for the friends who may or may not have the time to do so themselves, or the access to the Australian rules and regs.
One little wrinkle I would suggest that you might keep track of, in addition to money exchanged, is to WHOM the money was remitted. If this had happened in the State of Illinois, and I had remitted to a GIRLFRIENDS bank account, it would not be Gary, but the girlfriend who owed me the money.
Potentially, I could have a judgement placed against her for the balance, interest and court costs, and have it deducted from her paycheck (if she had one)
One little wrinkle I would suggest that you might keep track of, in addition to money exchanged, is to WHOM the money was remitted. If this had happened in the State of Illinois, and I had remitted to a GIRLFRIENDS bank account, it would not be Gary, but the girlfriend who owed me the money.
Potentially, I could have a judgement placed against her for the balance, interest and court costs, and have it deducted from her paycheck (if she had one)
skydiveTaylorville.org
freefallbeth@yahoo.com
freefallbeth@yahoo.com
dorbie 0
QuoteQuote
The key issue would seem to be when this started happening and how soon Gary should have called it a day. The argument that because he did not take the cash deposited for an order and immediately place that order with his supplier makes it intentionally criminal is IMHO bogus. It's not how businesses are obliged to operate, but it does seem likely that Gary played fast and loose with the status of orders at his cash-flow problems worsened.
Another poster in this thread has stated that in Australia, trading while insolvent is a considered a crime punishable by fines and imprisonment.
If that's a fact, and Gary is found to be guilty of this, then Gary has in fact committed a crime as its defined in Australian law regardless of whether or not it was done with the specific intent to defraud customers for his own benefit.
I noticed that, there are multiple definitions of insolvency, e.g. cash-flow insolvency vs. ballance sheet insolvency. There is also not always a neat delineation of when a business realizes it is insolvent.
There is another big if in your statement that effectively says that "if Gary is convicted of a crime then he's a criminal". Who would disagree with such a statement? Intent however may play a role in determining guilt; mens rea.
Anyone running a business on the decline at some point has to come to the realization that it's not going to work out, that's got to be a tough pill to swallow. Picture someone torn between disappointing his current customers (and losing his business, his job and his reputation) or trying to make it work by getting more customers and using those funds to fulfill older orders in the hopes that improved margins help him recover. I've seen people label this a Ponzi scheme, but that is simply inaccurate, it does not rely on unattainable inexorable growth, it's nothing like a Ponzi scheme, but it will end just as quickly if the business reputation is lost and the bubble bursts.
tayra 0
Australian law focuses heavily on cash flow insolvency. As gary ran a business with little to no liquid capital he had no room for error here (like dave has mentioned several times). When you go and admit you owe a manufacturer an amount that would take dozens of orders to cover (using profit alone) you should not be continuing to take customers money.
In Australia misleading customers as to your financial situation is illegal. He should have been forced into administration long ago.
In Australia misleading customers as to your financial situation is illegal. He should have been forced into administration long ago.
Unstable 9
QuoteIn Australia misleading customers as to your financial situation is illegal. He should have been forced into administration long ago.
Agreed, I've been following this thing for a bit now. More of less he fell behind a payment, then started running a ponzi scheme to keep enough cash flow to stay 1 order behind. I'll be he didn't realize the shit he dug himself into before he had carried it on too long....
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
=========Shaun ==========
Quote
I'm kicking myself for actually depositing £3.5k ish into a Royal Bank of Scotland account belonging to the girlfriend of a bloke in Australia. Sounds fucking dumb now doesn't it?
Yup, can't believe I was so stupid - luckily I got the rig I ordered, but seriously, can't believe I put the cash in his girlfriends account.
Gary's prices were much lower that quoted elsewhere - obviously the quotes from UK dealers included VAT, enough margin to cover paying for their shop, staff overheads, UK tax, import duty on the rig etc etc. Gary's prices did not.
The number one reason why people (myself included) were so happy to buy from Gary despite any misgivings and unease about the set up was that you could have your rig delivered to Peris or whatever and then paying the UK VAT and import duty was your responsibility. Hindsight is a wonderful thing eh?
Leeds University Skydiving Club
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk
obelixtim 150
As the old saying goes...."When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging".....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
Sorry, but you can not say that the Price is low because it does not include VAT - VAT (and or Import Duty) is your responsibility and not paying it on a new purchase is fraud - If you are VAT registered you 'may' be able to claim it back - but it's NOT OPTIONAL in the U.K
Sounds like Gary may have been playing by his own rule book BUT it also sounds like a number of his clients are too.
WARNING : Those on here in the U.K ought to be VERY careful what they have written here in that respect
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
Sounds like Gary may have been playing by his own rule book BUT it also sounds like a number of his clients are too.
WARNING : Those on here in the U.K ought to be VERY careful what they have written here in that respect
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
Easy, there.
I, for one, paid duty on the orders I placed through Gary, and other people I know did too. Some of us dealt with him, despite it being a pain in the arse, because he supported university clubs and community boogies and generally tried to do good in the world.
The implication that somehow people who dealt with him were trying to get something for nothing or were just blinded by his cheapness, and thus in some way deserved to lose their money isn't very helpful.
I, for one, paid duty on the orders I placed through Gary, and other people I know did too. Some of us dealt with him, despite it being a pain in the arse, because he supported university clubs and community boogies and generally tried to do good in the world.
The implication that somehow people who dealt with him were trying to get something for nothing or were just blinded by his cheapness, and thus in some way deserved to lose their money isn't very helpful.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan
"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan
"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?
No need for me to go "easy there" and I never implied that all customers did.. I was was warning those folks that did.. please read 3 posts up.
If one did nowt wrong then one has nowt to worry about but, if on the other hand one did knowingly evade HMRC their dues - then one ought be careful what is written to a public forum.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
If one did nowt wrong then one has nowt to worry about but, if on the other hand one did knowingly evade HMRC their dues - then one ought be careful what is written to a public forum.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
Rigless 0
Quoteit's a crime.
More so when Gary has no intention whatsoever to contact all the customers who lost their money and start making plans, a way out to refund the customers and overall communicating with them..
Instead, he goes into hiding and nobody knows where he is, what's he doing or is he ever going to return what he took..
"All limits are self imposed." Icarus
QuoteNo need for me to go "easy there" and I never implied that all customers did.. I was was warning those folks that did.. please read 3 posts up.
If one did nowt wrong then one has nowt to worry about but, if on the other hand one did knowingly evade HMRC their dues - then one ought be careful what is written to a public forum.
Relax.
I'm saying it was left as the customers responsibility to pay the UK VAT and Import duty, which when not quoted in the headline price makes it all seem very cheap. And cheap as chips is THE number one reason why people bought from Gary rather from a UK dealer where thats all wrapped up in the quoted price.
When I had to pay up the VAT & Import durty I remember thinking I perhaps hadn't got such a good deal as I initially thought.
Like in the US sales tax isn't quoted in the prices on the shelves which always catches me out, get to the till and you're already committed and pay it, but you might not have made the purchase had you included the tax in your initial assessment of if the item was a 'good deal'.
Leeds University Skydiving Club
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk
QuoteSorry, but you can not say that the Price is low because it does not include VAT -
Oh, and yes I can. One shop quotes a price for, say, a £100 alti wihich includes VAT and gives a price of £120. Another shop has a brochure price of £100 excl VAT. Factually correct to say that that quoted price is lower becasue it doesn't include VAT.
Leeds University Skydiving Club
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk
ChrisL 2
Quote
I noticed that, there are multiple definitions of insolvency, e.g. cash-flow insolvency vs. ballance sheet insolvency. There is also not always a neat delineation of when a business realizes it is insolvent..
In this particular case, Gary told me in no uncertain terms that he was having problems with his business and had ceased to take new customer orders until
he was squared away again.
This is a pretty strong indicator that he was well aware that he was insolvent
at that point.
This message was in March of 2010.
According to at least one person that lost at least 7k and has nothing to show for it, he paid Gary for gear in June of 2010.
You dont even need to be able to do math to conclude that he continued to take customer monies well after he knew he was in real trouble.
Who knows if the law will make a determination that he traded while insolvent,
very often the law doesnt align cleanly with reality due to what can actually be proven in court, but the fact remains that he did continue to do business and take money from customers well beyond the point where he knew he should have stopped.
I'm not interested in seeing him crucified. I did eventually get my whole order
so out of all his unhappy customers I have very little to bitch about.
I had a very stressful 6 months but in the end I got my gear.
I also believe that his initial intentions were good and that it was not his
reasoned plan to defraud customers for personal gain AND that it was he fully
intended at one point to try and work things out and fill all the orders that he had taken.
Unfortunately now it appears that he has cut and run and abandoned his remaining customers. That may or may not be the case, but the fact that he seems to have completely dropped out of sight and cant be contacted lends credibility to that theory.
__
My mighty steed
My mighty steed
Sorry I seem to have made an inference gaff (not my 1st and sure as hell won't be my last 
)- But hey I'm relaxed - I just know that the nice folks at HMRC 'love' nothing better than chasing down miscreants.
People can take the advice for what it is.. not going to affect my sleep patterns ZZZZZzzzzzzzzz
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
QuoteSorry, but you can not say that the Price is low because it does not include VAT - VAT (and or Import Duty) is your responsibility and not paying it on a new purchase is fraud - If you are VAT registered you 'may' be able to claim it back - but it's NOT OPTIONAL in the U.K
Sounds like Gary may have been playing by his own rule book BUT it also sounds like a number of his clients are too.
WARNING : Those on here in the U.K ought to be VERY careful what they have written here in that respect
Delivery to Perris is great when you are going there to jump / a friend is, as it's saves a small fortune on international postage fees. :)
In a previous post, I explained why 'cash flow' doesn't apply to the custom ordered gear business, where you're making a limited number of transactions with a very low % of profit. Here's that verbatim -
On to this -
In the post I quoted above, I commented on that very sbuject, and here that is -
I'll wrap this up by taking a shot at this -
We're not talking about creditors. These aren't people who sent Gary money based on the idea of a continuing business relationship or repayment to include interest, both of which would be considered 'business', and as such, contains a level of implied risk.
The people here were customers, who placed an order for products and paid for them, as is their responsibility in the transaction. The only way they would be taking a 'risk' is if Gary failed in his duty. The products they ordered were from long-standing, reputable companies that they could count on to deliver the product as-ordered, or make reasonable adjustment if they didn't. In the end, the one risk they too, Gary, turned out to be one too many.
Gary blew it, he took those peoples money, lied to them for months on end, and never even ordered the merchandise. ONE time is a mistake, and I could see not calling it a crime if he begged for foregiveness, and immediately began repayment to that single customer. The instant he accepted one more order which he did not remit to the manufacturer, it's a crime and his one freebie (the first order) becomes a crime as well.
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