F1-11 main - Keep it or move on?

[Thedivingdog 0]

Just got an older rig with a pd170 f1-11 main. I made about 10 jumps so far, mostly stand up and a couple plf. I feel ok with it so far, but a couple much wiser skydivers than I have mentioned that this summer, when the weather gets way hotter (I'm in Arizona), the flares are gonna be shit. Does anyone have experience with this?
I don't have much $$, so I would rather keep it for now, but I did find an older Sabre1 170 with 500 jumps for $500.
Questions:
If I keep the pd170, any suggestions on how/when to flare? Someone mentioned I should start much sooner and slower. Is this correct?

If I get the sabre, it will probably need a lineset soon. Can I use the lineset from my pd170 (It only has 70 jumps total) or does every main have a unique lineset?

Any help is appreciated.

[faulknerwn 38]

What's your wing-loading? F111 is not bad stuff as long as its not worn out or heavily wing-loaded. I jumped my old PD 150 today and loved it - it just flies itself home and practically flares itself.. :-)

Generally you'll want to flare F111 a bit higher than ZP. And if it only has 70 jumps on it it is far from worn out.. A lot of modern skydivers who grew up in the ZP era will bad-mouth F111 for no reason..

Keep jumping it - if you start having problems landing it, consider getting something else. If you figure it out and are getting nice landings, save your money for jumps..

I have a ton of rigs, canopy sizes varying from 99-150 - and on no-wind days I prefer my old F111 PD 150 because it lands so soft with no effort..

[pchapman 279]

There's no law against being rough on your knees and ankles. If you can manage the landings without hurting yourself, OK. But they will get worse in the heat of summer. And a lot of people will hassle you about the old canopy.

There's technically nothing wrong with jumping it, but if you can move to just about anything ZP it would be a big step forward.

Advice to you will also depend on how many jumps are on the canopy and your wing loading.

Each line set is unique to the canopy design & size. (You're new at this!)

Flaring smaller F-111: Lower and faster would be better. There's "less flare available" so you can't start early. It has to be more precisely timed, with less time between initiation and touchdown. Which makes it tougher for the less experienced.

I'm saying this as someone who LIKES F-111 and isn't biased against it. I sometimes jump an older F-111 canopy at just 0.9 wing loading and the landings are still a little hard on the ankles in low wind unless I hook it really low and hard (not for you!). So it wouldn't be fun day in and out.

EDIT: Like Wendy says, it really depends in the end on whether YOU can land YOUR particular canopy OK. And she's quite light weight, so keep that in mind when she talks about her 150.

[faulknerwn 38]

These days I load my PD 150 out the door about 1.1.

So its not that lightly loaded!

[VideoFly 0]

I loved my PD and jumped it while I also jumped a ZP canopy. I think that the PD F-111 canopy is excellent and easy to land as well. However, I do feel that for me, my ZP is capable of softer landings than my PD. But that could also be because I am comparing two very different canopy designs.

[in2jumping 0]

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when the weather gets way hotter (I'm in Arizona), the flares are gonna be shit. Does anyone have experience with this?
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I have ate crap on a few landings jumping in 100+ degree no wind days here in AZ. You definitely notice the difference when the temperatures rise, you come in much faster and have quite a bit less lift.

If you are going to jump in the summer, get your jumps in early in the morning before 10 or 11 am. To me it is not worth the risk jumping in the turbulence and all the dust devils that start forming in the afternoon.

[Thedivingdog 0]

My wing loading is 1 to 1.08.
But now i'm confused. Wendy says to start my flare a bit higher than ZP. I did all my student jumps on ZP so I think I can figure that out, but then pchapman says to flare lower and faster. You both have lots of experience, but which one is it??

[DBCOOPER 5]

Its the don't look for advise on the internet one...

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[davelepka 4]

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then pchapman says to flare lower and faster. You both have lots of experience, but which one is it??

On a larger F-111 main, it might take a little longer to slow down, so you might flare it higher like a student canopy. On a smaller or worn out F-111 main, you might only get one small window of opportunity to slow the thing down, so you use a strong, forceful flare closer to the ground so every bit of forward speed to translated into lift, and helps you to get a 'soft' landing.

All of that aside, lose the PD170. They were the top of the line in their day, but that day was 20 years ago. Seriously, look at the date of manufacture, and ask yourself why the canopy only has 70 jumps on in all that time.

Buy the Sabre 170, and learn to roll the nose when you pack. Have a rigger check the lines, and make sure the steering lines are adjusted properly, both when the brakes are set and the overall length. Sell the PD170, and you might get $200 out of it, enough for a reline on the Sabre.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Just got an older rig with a pd170 f1-11 main. I made about 10 jumps so far, mostly stand up and a couple plf.

You have 50 or more jumps and you cannot do better than a 90% stand up rate? Get a better canopy. Landing is not supposed to hurt. All those slightly rough landings will add up. Trust me I know.

[ufk22 33]

This is your call. I did my first 100 jumps on an old canopy so I could afford to keep jumping.
If you can successfully land the canopy and buying something else means you have a canopy you can't afford to jump, hang in with what you've got.
An old Sabre 1 that needs a reline is a $750 canopy, not a $500 one. Your canopy really has NO resale value (and you can't use the lines on a Sabre), so can you spend $750 and keep jumping?
What I found years back was that the point to initiate the flair was about the same, but you need to bring the toggles down faster with F111. Just be aware that if you flair to high too deep, this canopy is much more likely to stall, so be ready to bring the toggles back up (slowly and only a little ways) if you feel the canopy stall. Practice your flair up high and get used to what it will do and how long you can stay in full flair before the canopy stalls and goes backwards.
Practice your PLFs if you decide to keep the PD170. Get advise from someone local who has been around long enough to have a lot of jumps on F-111. No one who has been in the sport less than 10 years will have any experience with this canopy.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[wmw999 2,544]

I'm 56 and have been jumping for quite awhile. I've always felt free to fall down, and plan to continue doing so. I'm not much better than 90%, especially on no-wind days. If the OP is comfortable with their landings, and comfortable that they will improve, then good for them.

A good PLF will really make a difference in how easy it is to get back up. An overcommital to standing up because falling down is frowned on is far more likely to lead to injury.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[manseman 0]

I started out with a very tired pd210-f111 loaded 1:1. On low wind days my bones hurt the least when I stabbed the toggles hard and late. Not that it made much difference from not flaring at all. Your canopy is likely in much better shape though, so you might want to experiment a bit on a normal wind day to find out what works best. Or borrow or demo a decent ZP canopy and then decide if you really can't afford one.

[Thedivingdog 0]

Update - Just jumped at 3,500 MSL, almost no wind, with no problems. I started my flare around 10 feet, nice and smooth, about 2 seconds start to finish and stood up no prob. Thanks for the help.

[skybytch 273]

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You have 50 or more jumps and you cannot do better than a 90% stand up rate? Get a better canopy.

What do you tell people with better canopies and hundreds of jumps who can't stand up 90% of their landings?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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You have 50 or more jumps and you cannot do better than a 90% stand up rate? Get a better canopy.

What do you tell people with better canopies and hundreds of jumps who can't stand up 90% of their landings?

1) Get more coaching
2) upper body strength training
3) lose weight
4) different canopy

There is no excuse for regularly falling down (competition canopy fliers excepted) any more than there is for an aircraft to regularly blow tires.

[topdocker 0]

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You have 50 or more jumps and you cannot do better than a 90% stand up rate? Get a better canopy.

What do you tell people with better canopies and hundreds of jumps who can't stand up 90% of their landings?

1) Get more coaching
2) upper body strength training
3) lose weight
4) different canopy

There is no excuse for regularly falling down (competition canopy fliers excepted) any more than there is for an aircraft to regularly blow tires.

So no excuse for not standing up that tandem...

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Jump more, post less!

[gowlerk 2,251]

So no excuse for not standing up that tandem...

Ha!
As you know tandems don't fall down. They just sometimes choose to be tail draggers!

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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So no excuse for not standing up that tandem...

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Well I use the canopy that I find gives me the best chance at a stand up without approaching the corner to closely. If I could find a canopy that I could stand up consistently with straight in approaches I would use that. I did start refusing to use F-111 tandem canopies for, among other reasons, their poor landing characteristics.

[wmw999 2,544]

Quite frankly, if you're on a serious budget, I'd keep the PD170 and keep jumping it for a couple hundred jumps. For that long it won't be even close to ragged out.

Don't expect to get anything for it when you're done. But in that time you'll have a better idea of what you like and don't like.

If you think you're going to get heavier (e.g. working out to build up muscle) this advice is rendered invalid -- you're probably up close to the top of where you should be loading that at your experience level.

It won't swoop for you. It'll land you where you want to, when you want to. And if you use the money for jumping and saving up for another canopy, then you can get something that's even more current than a Sabre, with more leeway to pick exactly the right canopy. and look for a deal while you're at it

And if you need to PLF a landing, PLF a landing. It's really not a big deal. The successful jump is the one you walk away from smiling, not the one you stand up.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[d123 3]

+ 1 to what wmw999 says.

And after 199 jumps when you buy yourself a new canopy, buy some spectra cord and transfrom the old pd170 into a traction kite.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Broke 0]

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My wing loading is 1 to 1.08.
But now i'm confused. Wendy says to start my flare a bit higher than ZP. I did all my student jumps on ZP so I think I can figure that out, but then pchapman says to flare lower and faster. You both have lots of experience, but which one is it??

Get video of your landing, and see which flare technique works better for you.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Ron 10]

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Its the don't look for advise on the internet one...

Ding.... we have a winner!!!!!!!!

Why do people try to get technical performance advice from people they do not know and who have not seen them perform.

BTW, DB... I have never seen you exit a plane, but if you drop your left knee 3 more inches when you let go you should be able to fix that problem you are having that I didn't know about

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334