RandomLemming 0 #1 January 30, 2008 All, We're having a fairly impassioned debate on another forum right now about the UK regulations surrounding full face helmets. I'm keen to get a better understanding of the requirements in other countries that have to be met before you can jump a full face. In the UK, I need a B license. This means that I need 50 jumps, have to be able to pack, be able to carry out a flightline check and be able to do a declared landing within a 15 foot radius 5 out of 10 times. If I cannot do 1 of these things even at 100 jumps, I still cannot jump with a FF helmet. I'm not sure what it is about the ability to do a flightline check (as an example) that would suddenly make me safe to move from an open face helmet to a full face one, but there you have it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the_sarge 0 #2 January 30, 2008 In Denmark, there are no requirements for jumping with a fullface... I agree... Some of the requirements that you are listing do seem really weird. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #3 January 30, 2008 Suck it up and fufill the reqs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #4 January 30, 2008 In the United States a standard Protec plastic helmet has several state and national certifications. There are no other skydiving helmets with these tested approvals. Here, I'd say requiring a specific kind of helmet, other than a certified helmet, would open the organization to liability if a non-certified helmet failed to prevent an injury. Simply requiring a hard helmet and allowing the consumer to make the choice seems like a better approach from a liability standpoint, and from a safety and customer service standpoint. However, when in Rome.... If you think the regulations are foolish, you can try to change them from the outside as a member of the organization, or you can run for office and change them from the inside. In the meantime, ya just gotta do what you are told, and use the requirement as an incentive to get better.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #5 January 30, 2008 QuoteHowever, when in Rome.... ... loot, pillage and engage in orgies ? :D QuoteIf you think the regulations are foolish, you can try to change them from the outside as a member of the organization, or you can run for office and change them from the inside. In the meantime, ya just gotta do what you are told, and use the requirement as an incentive to get better. It's not so much that I believe the regulation is foolish, just that it is not justified in a way that is relevant to the restriction. I am most certainly doing my best to improve, including taking part in canopy courses and working on my B license. Availability of instructors at my primary dropzone is an issue with this, with the JM course only being run twice in the last year as far as I remember, and my shift work keeping me away from both of those. My reason for posting here is to get a sampling of what is required in other countries so that I can begin to investigate further and present a cohesive, researched argument to the restriction, as well as a reasoned alternative. By the time I present this, I doubt it will still be applicable to me, but at the same time, I don't see why future skydivers should suffer under rules that make no sense (in context) just because I had to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #6 January 30, 2008 No requirement in the US... I got a full face when I had 40-50 jumps, specifically for a winter boogie. I've seen some people start jumping full face helmets well before that too. Haven't personally seen any problems caused by inexperienced people using full face helmets, but they definitely do make things a little more complicated. In warmer weather it's less of an issue. But in the cold, the visors are more likely to fog, then freeze. Then with gloves they can be harder to open (if they open). And they reduce peripheral vision and the ability to see emergency handles. I have to really think about my breathing as my canopy snivels or I'll fog mine up... and then the fog freezes and it doesn't go away for a while. So I guess I can see why some countries have rules about them. Almost surprised the US doesn't... yet. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #7 January 30, 2008 QuoteI'm not sure what it is about the ability to do a flightline check (as an example) that would suddenly make me safe to move from an open face helmet to a full face one, but there you have it. The nanny state strikes again... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #8 January 30, 2008 OK, The USPA rules in the United States: Basic Safety Regulations require a ridged helmet for all students except tandems. (Skydiver Information manual, Section 2-1(K)(2)(a). Recommendations are included in section 5-3, and are not madatory. Specifically, 5-3(K)(d) says: "(d) A rigid helmet-- (1) should be worn on all skydives (tandem students may wear soft helmets) (2) should be lightweight and not restrict vision or hearing." You can read the entire SIM at: http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.htmTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #9 January 30, 2008 License B in Finland. AFIAK That's about the level when a student has completed the subterminal jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #10 January 30, 2008 Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #11 January 30, 2008 Oopss. Myy fingerss weree justt aa littlee tooo fastt. It's been corrected.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #12 January 30, 2008 In Bulgaria, there are no requirements for jumping with a full face"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phastasphuk 0 #13 January 30, 2008 In Sweden you need a B-licence, and that you get after comleting 100 jumps after getting your A-licence and attending a mandatory "heads up" education/course. Reason for imposing this restriction is because of what RandomLemming is describing, that you have less vision and they can easily make your dive alot more complicated. I think that the incident that made the rule was a couple of guys going through a cloud thinking that they would dump as soon as the cloud cleared because they knew the ceiling of the cloud. Cypres saves and realisation that the cloud they were waiting for to open up was on the inside of the helmet. Guess it was foggy there from the beginning...chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #14 January 30, 2008 There are no restrictions in Canada. However, IMO, you should be capable of doing a flightline check before you get your CAT 6. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #15 January 30, 2008 QuoteOopss. Myy fingerss weree justt aa littlee tooo fastt. It's been corrected. I think not. You mean RIGID, not RIDGED.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #16 January 31, 2008 Thanks all - that's useful information... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mik 2 #17 January 31, 2008 QuoteAll, We're having a fairly impassioned debate on another forum right now about the UK regulations surrounding full face helmets. I'm keen to get a better understanding of the requirements in other countries that have to be met before you can jump a full face. In the UK, I need a B license. This means that I need 50 jumps, have to be able to pack, be able to carry out a flightline check and be able to do a declared landing within a 15 foot radius 5 out of 10 times. If I cannot do 1 of these things even at 100 jumps, I still cannot jump with a FF helmet. I'm not sure what it is about the ability to do a flightline check (as an example) that would suddenly make me safe to move from an open face helmet to a full face one, but there you have it. I did not realise that it is a UK-wide requirement to pack to get a B licence... must have missed that change *********************************************** I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #18 January 31, 2008 "Here you go young skydiver, heres your A license. Go off into the world as a skydiver even if packing is not a requirment for this noble license... just dont jump a full face" That always kinda bugged me.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RandomLemming 0 #19 January 31, 2008 Quote I did not realise that it is a UK-wide requirement to pack to get a B licence... must have missed that change Packing is a requirement to get your CH2. CH2 is a requirement to get your B :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mik 2 #20 January 31, 2008 QuoteQuote I did not realise that it is a UK-wide requirement to pack to get a B licence... must have missed that change Packing is a requirement to get your CH2. CH2 is a requirement to get your B :) Am glad I got mine a while back :) *********************************************** I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #21 January 31, 2008 Strictly speaking, packing is a requirement to get JM1 (jumpmaster sticker), which is the other requirement for B (along with 50 jumps). But let's not split hairs -- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #22 January 31, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote I did not realise that it is a UK-wide requirement to pack to get a B licence... must have missed that change Packing is a requirement to get your CH2. CH2 is a requirement to get your B :) Am glad I got mine a while back :) Dunno how accurate your profile is, but packing has been a requirement for a B-lic for longer than 4 years.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladydyver 0 #23 January 31, 2008 Quote But in the cold, the visors are more likely to fog, then freeze. Then with gloves they can be harder to open (if they open). And they reduce peripheral vision and the ability to see emergency handles. Dave I have a full face and think that this is a good point to bring up. I keep my visor open until I am ready to ge out the door for this same reason. I had an off cross country landing due to my visor fogging - scared me to death and since it was a newer helmet I had a problem getting it to flip up until I was way passed where I was suppose to land. Ended up being ok but is definitely something for newer jumpers to think about when picking out a helmet.DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyninja 0 #24 January 31, 2008 If you 'accidentally' fall through clouds, will your full face fog and remain fogged?Why don't you just play 'chicken' on the railroad tracks? It would be a cheaper way to toy with death, I'm sure. CWR #2 - "You SAID collision!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladydyver 0 #25 February 1, 2008 Quote If you 'accidentally' fall through clouds, will your full face fog and remain fogged? jumping through clouds....neverI have hit industrial haze on occasion but fogging hasn't been an issue as of yet......maybe someone who has more jumps can add more to it as my experience is very limited.DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
