billvon 3,070 #51 January 21, 2003 >Or, calling an Otter a bomber . . . Calling a D-18 a bomber would be a better example. In some instances it _was_ a bomber. (it was called the C-45 in its bomber configuration.) Just as in some instances the correct legal term for a semiautomatic weapon is an assault weapon. You don't have to agree with the name, you just have to know that certain semiautomatic weapons are called assault weapons under some laws, and are regulated differently regardless of their ability to fire full auto. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #52 January 21, 2003 Quote>Question Bill: Do you personally feel at all fearful living in Sandy Eggo? Not from local violence. I'm far more likely to kill myself driving or skydiving than get shot by an evildoer in the streets of Mira Mesa. Someone tried to mug me once, and had my car stolen once (well, he tried to steal it, we caught him.) These happened in NYC and Boston; it still didn't make me live in fear. ................................................................ This is way off the subject, but might relate to living in fear.......Where we live in Montana we rarely even lock the door, even when we're gone. A year ago we went to Palm Springs to visit my brother. He usually locks his doors but we didn't one day, after all we were in the back yard soaking in the hot tub (all seven of us) and a break in was last thing we suspected. My daughter finally decided to join us later, and came out into the back yard. About then a team of burglars came in and ripped off all our wallets, purses, cameras, and anything else that was handy. My brother is a cop and he said that burglars are usually armed, and it scared the hell out of me to think what might have happened to my daughter. So after that I didn't really live in fear, but it made me more aware of what can happen in the big city. It's a lot different from Hickville where I usually hang out. I guess we looked like ripe pickings. One of the worst things about all this was getting enough money so I could jump at Perris. Luckily we found one credit card that wasn't stolen. We'll know better next time. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnischalke 0 #53 January 21, 2003 QuoteYou don't have to agree with the name, you just have to know that certain semiautomatic weapons are called assault weapons under some laws, and are regulated differently regardless of their ability to fire full auto. ...even though they are operationally completely different. Operationally compared to the United States' current issue assault weapon, the M16, the AR-15 has a different bolt, a different safety selector switch, a different disconnector, no full-auto disconnector, no sear, a different trigger and a different hammer. (edit: nor the burst components of the current M16A2) A "post-ban" AR also has no flash hider (a moot point due to the fact that most smokeless powders create little or no visible flash at the muzzle). Nor does it have a bayonet lug (ummmmmm, still not sure how many people have fixed bayonets lately). Its purely an apples and oranges analogy. One adopted by the VPC and the Bradys, fueled by the media and easily digested by anti-gun politicians and a frightened public. Quite simply, my AR has more in common with the Browning BAR Safari Rifle than it does with the M16, discounting appearance. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #54 January 21, 2003 QuoteGunsite is, in fact, a tactical training center in Arizona created 24 years ago from the mind of Jeff Cooper. mike I graduated from the three tactical handgun courses there, met Col. Cooper, drank his wife's Iced Tea, and got to look around in his gun room. It's a neat place, staffed by pretty sharp people. Don't call the mascot a crow, though, they will remind you "It's a Raven!" It's fun to stir them up, though. One poor dope in my advanced class shot himself in the foot with his .45 while I was there. While this does not speak well of the almost universally high caliber of the student body there, it does address the topic of handgun bullet damage. A young ER Surgeon was in my class, a former full time SF soldier and current SF reserve officer, and when the knucklehead popped a cap into his foot, the surgeon took the guys shoe off and had us all come over and look at the wound. "See that? Hydrostatic shock is bullsh*t." There was a neat .45 entrance hole and a pretty neat .5 exit hole. Ball ammo, but even black talon wouldn't have had much opportunity to expand in the brief period of time in the foot. Rifles cause far more traumatic wounds, I suspect the wrist injury that Billvon describes may have been caused by a rifle round. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #55 January 22, 2003 I remember reading Jeff Coopers articles years ago. Sounds like an interesting guy. He must be in his 70's by now. I wonder what the foot would have looked like if it had been a 45 Hollow Point. I'm sure velocity and how hot it's loaded would make a big difference. I've seen a variety of rifle exit wounds on various critters such as deer and elk, but I don't know a whole lot about the damage from a pistol round. All I know is that I'd hate to be on the receiving end of a 45 hollow point. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnischalke 0 #56 January 22, 2003 Speaking of ADs, ask Col. Cooper about his most recent one the next time you see him. Ugh. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #57 January 22, 2003 QuoteWhile the family may certainly play a role in a lot of these problems, I don't accept a direct causal relationship. I do not accept that if a kid grows up in a disfunctional family, he will definately turn into a columbine kid. Nor do I accept that that kid will take to drugs, not hold a job, get arrested, have a child at 16, get an abortion... just because (s)he comes from a dysfunctional family. No one on here has said this. I'll challenge you to find any "rule" in this arena. IOW, if A happens it will definitely cause a person to kill 100% of the time. QuoteClearly, there are other factors at work beside the strength of the family. Yes, there are. But this does not allow you to ignore the breakdown of the family. Nor does it prove or indicate that the breakdown of the family is not causing problems. Quoteit's a relatively minor influence on the actions he performs later in life. I strongly disagree with this. Lack of a strong father figure at home is a major factor in inner city gang membership. These kids are looking for something to belong to. When they can't find it at home they find it in the streets. Gangs promote violence. There is a direct link. It is not the only factor, but it is a major one. QuoteIt's too easy to place all of the nations ills on the backs of the family. I don't think its nearly that simple. No it is not that simple. Just chalk it up as a factor. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #58 January 22, 2003 I'm sure that law enforcement people are very aware of why violent felons are the way they are. Most criminals have a history of a very dysfunctional home. Parenting skills are so important, and many of us are doing a poor job. I've had to relearn many things in raising my own kids. For example I've had a very hard time even telling my kids that I loved them or even giving them compliments. After all there was almost no one telling me these things when I grew up. I mean it just didn't feel right to tell them things like that. So I had to learn how to do this. I now know they need it. It took a while, but I now enjoy telling them that I love them, and that they are great kids. Most of us end up being a carbon copy of what are parents were like (for good or bad) unless we can learn differently. It's too bad that more parents don't have access to this kind of education. I'm sure there would be fewer kids growing up to be violent felons. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #59 January 22, 2003 QuoteSpeaking of ADs, ask Col. Cooper about his most recent one the next time you see him. Ugh. Is he's still teaching the virtue of a 92 year old pistol design? I enjoy his articles and books but take issue with his comments concerning other designs... ...I still have a ParaCommander, and I bet it still works...but it's a museum piece by todays standards... it is after all the 21st century!!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smiles 0 #60 January 22, 2003 Quote I'm sure that law enforcement people are very aware of why violent felons are the way they are. Most criminals have a history of a very dysfunctional home...............Most of us end up being a carbon copy of what are parents were like (for good or bad) unless we can learn differently. It's too bad that more parents don't have access to this kind of education. I'm sure there would be fewer kids growing up to be violent felons. Steve1 What is a felon named that attacks the elderly?? Closest big city here is Vancouver, B.C. Canada ...we live in little community one hour away...shit is coming down here now like everywhere. Great grandma & grandpa snoozing in their home of 30 years. Grandma wakes up in the night with two shadows standing over her bed ...she quickly jabs grandpa yelling at the top of her lungs..."Jack get the gun" (they don't own a gun, grandpa didn't even awake)....the shadows disappeared fast..... their life of contentment has changed drastically. A skydiving friend just got news his grandma was in the hospital with a broken arm (purse snatcher on a bike made that one happen) ... Another elderly couple last week close by had B&E but not only stole tv and $54.00 cash/ aggravated assault....both are in hospital in serious condition. ....the sweet elderly lady on her own next door without a fear, had a phone call, and thought it was the R.C.M.P. so she made arrangements with the officer to come and collect donation from her home for local calendar. Then a car pulled up and a man came pounding at her door...she could see through her peeper that this was not a man in uniform so didn't unlatch her door...then the man ran around the back of the house pounding at her glass sliding door...she was on the phone talking with police when he smashed the window, got in the house and grabbed her wallet from her hand....shoved her down and took off. This was the deciding factor for her to move into an old folks home.....she moved in with us until that was arranged -to afraid to ever go back to her own home. There was no massive shooting, murder, rape,....no one is dead.... but the elderly people in our community have never had to be afraid for their lives before now -due to violent offenders. When your own children, parents and grandparents are being violated- you do not think about the dysfunctional offenders family upbringing......or parents having access to better education.......... Smiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #61 January 22, 2003 QuoteI've seen a variety of rifle exit wounds on various critters such as deer and elk, but I don't know a whole lot about the damage from a pistol round. One of my roommates took one of my trusty Glocks (G17) with him when he went Boar hunting a few months ago as a back up (if you miss with your rifle, those little fuckers will charge and will mess you up). Anyways, he forgot to go buy some cheap ammo so he took all for magazines of my defense ammo. Federal Hydroshock 147gr 9mm...anyways, he ended up shooting a racoon with it, it went in the racoon's hind quarter, went through the body and took the head clean off the critter (well, not "clean" off, it actually damn near exploded the head off). Not too bad for my little 9mm. Well, that is the heaviest defense round you can buy in 9mm...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #62 January 22, 2003 Here's some stats about Federal Hydro shock, in comparison between the 147gr 9mm and the 2 different weights offered in 45 auto (for those of you reading this that understand these things, 9mm is on top): Federal Load No. Factory Primer No. Caliber Bullet Weight Grains / Grams Bullet style P9HS2 200 9mm Luger (9x19mm Parabellum) 147 / 9.52 Hydra-Shok JHP Velocity in Feet Per Second (To Nearest 10 FPS) Energy in Foot Pounds (To Nearest 5 Foot-Pounds) Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds 1000 960 920 890 860 325 300 275 260 240 Mid-Range Trajectory Test Barrel Usage 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Length Inches Self defense 0.3 1.2 2.8 5.1 4 Federal Load No. Factory Primer No. Caliber Bullet Weight Grains / Grams Bullet style PD45HS3 150 45 Auto 165 / 10.66 Hydra-Shok JHP Velocity in Feet Per Second (To Nearest 10 FPS) Energy in Foot Pounds (To Nearest 5 Foot-Pounds) Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds 1060 1020 980 950 920 410 375 350 330 310 Mid-Range Trajectory Test Barrel Usage 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Length Inches Self defense 0.2 1.1 2.5 4.5 5 Federal Load No. Factory Primer No. Caliber Bullet Weight Grains / Grams Bullet style P45HS1 150 45 Auto 230 / 14.9 Hydra-Shok JHP Velocity in Feet Per Second (To Nearest 10 FPS) Energy in Foot Pounds (To Nearest 5 Foot-Pounds) Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds 850 830 810 790 770 370 350 335 320 305 Mid-Range Trajectory Test Barrel Usage 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Length Inches Self defense 0.4 1.6 3.6 6.6 5 --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #63 January 22, 2003 QuoteQuoteSpeaking of ADs, ask Col. Cooper about his most recent one the next time you see him. Ugh. Is he's still teaching the virtue of a 92 year old pistol design? I enjoy his articles and books but take issue with his comments concerning other designs... ...I still have a ParaCommander, and I bet it still works...but it's a museum piece by todays standards... it is after all the 21st century!!! ...................................................................... I'll bet you mean the 1911 (A-1) 45 that the military used to use. Most of the ones I fired were shot out, really loose, and accuracy was terrible. I've heard they're good if they are reworked, but then again there are probably better pistols on the market. It would be interesting to hear what Col. Cooper thinks of the new Glock pistols. My brother uses one in 10MM for police work. I'm not used to this type of pistol and I hated the feel of it and looks of it, but then again they are supposed to be super reliable and accurate. Not having a safety lever to worry about is another nice feature that would allow you to get the first shot off more quickly. My next pistol may be a Glock. But then again skydiving keeps me broke enough and I have enough guns. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #64 January 22, 2003 I avoid all the technical stuff that surrounds shooting. The bullet-worship about how gee-whiz expansion blah-blah, often overcomes what shooting people is about. It's about putting holes in them or through them. A .45 will put a .45 inch hole in what you shoot it at, it may get bigger in the target. I had a Glock 21 (14 round .45) last time I was out there, and there were two other cops with Glocks. All the 1911 variants began having malfunctions by the end of the week, the Glocks did not. It is a superior design. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #65 January 22, 2003 I've fired over 10,000rds through my G17 (Glock 17, the full sized 9mm). You know how many malfunctions I've had? One and it was my fault, since I was screwing around on the range, limp wristed the shot, eating all the recoil, thus stove piping a round.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #66 January 22, 2003 Out of curiosity, I wonder what you guys think about the idea of taking a discussion about a tragedy involving 14 dead kids, and turning it into a discussion about how cool each of your guns are. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #67 January 22, 2003 The discussion progressed that way, it happens. Atleast we were discussing something that is valid, self defense reliability, etc pertaining to tactical handgun usage and not some of the stupid shit that threads usually fall away into.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #68 January 22, 2003 Quotevalid, self defense Quotethe stupid shit that threads usually fall away into <> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #69 January 22, 2003 So you've now taken to trying to belittle me to win your personal battle against gun rights, nice...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsled92 0 #70 January 22, 2003 Quote It's nice to see people being thoughtful about the topic. I don't care for Moore, as everything I've seen him do he's goading folks. One thing, though. BillV said that ICBM's have only one purpose. I disagree. A launched ICBM serves only one purpose. While it is sitting ready in a silo, it serves a multitude of purposes, from diplomacy to deterrence. I think you can step this back all the way to a clenched fist. My life experience in this regard is skewed, as I carried arms and used them to coerce people for 13 years. Brits as a culture, in my experience, have a distaste for handguns. Likewise, Italians dislike defensive shotguns, as they are associated with Mob violence. Thanks for the review BillVon, I'll have to give Moore another chance. You'll love this... My back yard shares fence line with a place that makes cruise millies (for Subs/ Tommahawks are suspended for now). My father-in-law works there. It gives us a warm and fuzzy feeling to live in Amish Counrty: down wind from TMI and 57feet from HarpoonsWhat more could a boy want( My son is 12months)_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #71 January 22, 2003 Dave, Come on. Be honest. We disagree on this. That is fine. But not every opinion that isn't in favor of widespread gun ownership is "stupid shit". Take my comment as you will. Even where we differ, we can usually refrain from outright insults of the opposing side. The lapse into generalized name-calling about gun ownership opponents is all I was illustrating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #72 January 22, 2003 QuoteThe lapse into generalized name-calling about gun ownership opponents is all I was illustrating. I never did any sort of name calling, I was saying that atleast the topic we turned to was atleast a topic that was related to the origins of the thread, not about something outright stupid like the usual stuff (i.e. boobies, beastiality, etc). You're response to my post looked to be an outright attempt to belittle my intelligence, atleast thats how it seemed to me.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnischalke 0 #73 January 22, 2003 Ya'll better not be slamming the 1911. It is by far a better, more reliable pistol than anything on the market today (IMHO). I used to be all into the USP .40 compact for it's da/sa operation. I learned to hate it once I built my first 1911. After seeing and feeling true accuracy and reliability in a safe, single action autoloader, I won't go back to any plastic gun, period (well, except for that FNH five-seven pistol I shot last week--mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm--if I could only get one of those...). My 1911 in .38 super will outshoot me and I like that, plus, the .38 super has better ballistics, flatter trajectory and more energy than a .45, all with less recoil. Anyway, back to the 14-year old terrorists. Let's ban ritalin. That will solve everything. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsled92 0 #74 January 22, 2003 Quote Out of curiosity, I wonder what you guys think about the idea of taking a discussion about a tragedy involving 14 dead kids, and turning it into a discussion about how cool each of your guns are. _Am The event to raise awarness and bowl, was soap boxed by the The Muscial guest speaker, to make it a blanket statemnet that this thread has become.Thus,..."kids? what kids?" occured here._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bobsled92 0 #75 January 22, 2003 Quote Quote Like I said in the rest of my post, it is a major factor but not the only one that explains the issue. Go ride with your local police for a few days and start interviewing the people they arrest regularly. There is white trash, inner city abandonment, and all those other 'family' problems in countries all around the world that are just as bad as the states, but their violence rates don't even come close to the US. I think the breakdown of family is becoming the scapegoat for a lot of Americas ills. _Am Yes and thus we have............eminem_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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mnischalke 0 #53 January 21, 2003 QuoteYou don't have to agree with the name, you just have to know that certain semiautomatic weapons are called assault weapons under some laws, and are regulated differently regardless of their ability to fire full auto. ...even though they are operationally completely different. Operationally compared to the United States' current issue assault weapon, the M16, the AR-15 has a different bolt, a different safety selector switch, a different disconnector, no full-auto disconnector, no sear, a different trigger and a different hammer. (edit: nor the burst components of the current M16A2) A "post-ban" AR also has no flash hider (a moot point due to the fact that most smokeless powders create little or no visible flash at the muzzle). Nor does it have a bayonet lug (ummmmmm, still not sure how many people have fixed bayonets lately). Its purely an apples and oranges analogy. One adopted by the VPC and the Bradys, fueled by the media and easily digested by anti-gun politicians and a frightened public. Quite simply, my AR has more in common with the Browning BAR Safari Rifle than it does with the M16, discounting appearance. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #54 January 21, 2003 QuoteGunsite is, in fact, a tactical training center in Arizona created 24 years ago from the mind of Jeff Cooper. mike I graduated from the three tactical handgun courses there, met Col. Cooper, drank his wife's Iced Tea, and got to look around in his gun room. It's a neat place, staffed by pretty sharp people. Don't call the mascot a crow, though, they will remind you "It's a Raven!" It's fun to stir them up, though. One poor dope in my advanced class shot himself in the foot with his .45 while I was there. While this does not speak well of the almost universally high caliber of the student body there, it does address the topic of handgun bullet damage. A young ER Surgeon was in my class, a former full time SF soldier and current SF reserve officer, and when the knucklehead popped a cap into his foot, the surgeon took the guys shoe off and had us all come over and look at the wound. "See that? Hydrostatic shock is bullsh*t." There was a neat .45 entrance hole and a pretty neat .5 exit hole. Ball ammo, but even black talon wouldn't have had much opportunity to expand in the brief period of time in the foot. Rifles cause far more traumatic wounds, I suspect the wrist injury that Billvon describes may have been caused by a rifle round. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #55 January 22, 2003 I remember reading Jeff Coopers articles years ago. Sounds like an interesting guy. He must be in his 70's by now. I wonder what the foot would have looked like if it had been a 45 Hollow Point. I'm sure velocity and how hot it's loaded would make a big difference. I've seen a variety of rifle exit wounds on various critters such as deer and elk, but I don't know a whole lot about the damage from a pistol round. All I know is that I'd hate to be on the receiving end of a 45 hollow point. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #56 January 22, 2003 Speaking of ADs, ask Col. Cooper about his most recent one the next time you see him. Ugh. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #57 January 22, 2003 QuoteWhile the family may certainly play a role in a lot of these problems, I don't accept a direct causal relationship. I do not accept that if a kid grows up in a disfunctional family, he will definately turn into a columbine kid. Nor do I accept that that kid will take to drugs, not hold a job, get arrested, have a child at 16, get an abortion... just because (s)he comes from a dysfunctional family. No one on here has said this. I'll challenge you to find any "rule" in this arena. IOW, if A happens it will definitely cause a person to kill 100% of the time. QuoteClearly, there are other factors at work beside the strength of the family. Yes, there are. But this does not allow you to ignore the breakdown of the family. Nor does it prove or indicate that the breakdown of the family is not causing problems. Quoteit's a relatively minor influence on the actions he performs later in life. I strongly disagree with this. Lack of a strong father figure at home is a major factor in inner city gang membership. These kids are looking for something to belong to. When they can't find it at home they find it in the streets. Gangs promote violence. There is a direct link. It is not the only factor, but it is a major one. QuoteIt's too easy to place all of the nations ills on the backs of the family. I don't think its nearly that simple. No it is not that simple. Just chalk it up as a factor. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #58 January 22, 2003 I'm sure that law enforcement people are very aware of why violent felons are the way they are. Most criminals have a history of a very dysfunctional home. Parenting skills are so important, and many of us are doing a poor job. I've had to relearn many things in raising my own kids. For example I've had a very hard time even telling my kids that I loved them or even giving them compliments. After all there was almost no one telling me these things when I grew up. I mean it just didn't feel right to tell them things like that. So I had to learn how to do this. I now know they need it. It took a while, but I now enjoy telling them that I love them, and that they are great kids. Most of us end up being a carbon copy of what are parents were like (for good or bad) unless we can learn differently. It's too bad that more parents don't have access to this kind of education. I'm sure there would be fewer kids growing up to be violent felons. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #59 January 22, 2003 QuoteSpeaking of ADs, ask Col. Cooper about his most recent one the next time you see him. Ugh. Is he's still teaching the virtue of a 92 year old pistol design? I enjoy his articles and books but take issue with his comments concerning other designs... ...I still have a ParaCommander, and I bet it still works...but it's a museum piece by todays standards... it is after all the 21st century!!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #60 January 22, 2003 Quote I'm sure that law enforcement people are very aware of why violent felons are the way they are. Most criminals have a history of a very dysfunctional home...............Most of us end up being a carbon copy of what are parents were like (for good or bad) unless we can learn differently. It's too bad that more parents don't have access to this kind of education. I'm sure there would be fewer kids growing up to be violent felons. Steve1 What is a felon named that attacks the elderly?? Closest big city here is Vancouver, B.C. Canada ...we live in little community one hour away...shit is coming down here now like everywhere. Great grandma & grandpa snoozing in their home of 30 years. Grandma wakes up in the night with two shadows standing over her bed ...she quickly jabs grandpa yelling at the top of her lungs..."Jack get the gun" (they don't own a gun, grandpa didn't even awake)....the shadows disappeared fast..... their life of contentment has changed drastically. A skydiving friend just got news his grandma was in the hospital with a broken arm (purse snatcher on a bike made that one happen) ... Another elderly couple last week close by had B&E but not only stole tv and $54.00 cash/ aggravated assault....both are in hospital in serious condition. ....the sweet elderly lady on her own next door without a fear, had a phone call, and thought it was the R.C.M.P. so she made arrangements with the officer to come and collect donation from her home for local calendar. Then a car pulled up and a man came pounding at her door...she could see through her peeper that this was not a man in uniform so didn't unlatch her door...then the man ran around the back of the house pounding at her glass sliding door...she was on the phone talking with police when he smashed the window, got in the house and grabbed her wallet from her hand....shoved her down and took off. This was the deciding factor for her to move into an old folks home.....she moved in with us until that was arranged -to afraid to ever go back to her own home. There was no massive shooting, murder, rape,....no one is dead.... but the elderly people in our community have never had to be afraid for their lives before now -due to violent offenders. When your own children, parents and grandparents are being violated- you do not think about the dysfunctional offenders family upbringing......or parents having access to better education.......... Smiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #61 January 22, 2003 QuoteI've seen a variety of rifle exit wounds on various critters such as deer and elk, but I don't know a whole lot about the damage from a pistol round. One of my roommates took one of my trusty Glocks (G17) with him when he went Boar hunting a few months ago as a back up (if you miss with your rifle, those little fuckers will charge and will mess you up). Anyways, he forgot to go buy some cheap ammo so he took all for magazines of my defense ammo. Federal Hydroshock 147gr 9mm...anyways, he ended up shooting a racoon with it, it went in the racoon's hind quarter, went through the body and took the head clean off the critter (well, not "clean" off, it actually damn near exploded the head off). Not too bad for my little 9mm. Well, that is the heaviest defense round you can buy in 9mm...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #62 January 22, 2003 Here's some stats about Federal Hydro shock, in comparison between the 147gr 9mm and the 2 different weights offered in 45 auto (for those of you reading this that understand these things, 9mm is on top): Federal Load No. Factory Primer No. Caliber Bullet Weight Grains / Grams Bullet style P9HS2 200 9mm Luger (9x19mm Parabellum) 147 / 9.52 Hydra-Shok JHP Velocity in Feet Per Second (To Nearest 10 FPS) Energy in Foot Pounds (To Nearest 5 Foot-Pounds) Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds 1000 960 920 890 860 325 300 275 260 240 Mid-Range Trajectory Test Barrel Usage 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Length Inches Self defense 0.3 1.2 2.8 5.1 4 Federal Load No. Factory Primer No. Caliber Bullet Weight Grains / Grams Bullet style PD45HS3 150 45 Auto 165 / 10.66 Hydra-Shok JHP Velocity in Feet Per Second (To Nearest 10 FPS) Energy in Foot Pounds (To Nearest 5 Foot-Pounds) Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds 1060 1020 980 950 920 410 375 350 330 310 Mid-Range Trajectory Test Barrel Usage 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Length Inches Self defense 0.2 1.1 2.5 4.5 5 Federal Load No. Factory Primer No. Caliber Bullet Weight Grains / Grams Bullet style P45HS1 150 45 Auto 230 / 14.9 Hydra-Shok JHP Velocity in Feet Per Second (To Nearest 10 FPS) Energy in Foot Pounds (To Nearest 5 Foot-Pounds) Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Muzzle 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds 850 830 810 790 770 370 350 335 320 305 Mid-Range Trajectory Test Barrel Usage 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds Length Inches Self defense 0.4 1.6 3.6 6.6 5 --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #63 January 22, 2003 QuoteQuoteSpeaking of ADs, ask Col. Cooper about his most recent one the next time you see him. Ugh. Is he's still teaching the virtue of a 92 year old pistol design? I enjoy his articles and books but take issue with his comments concerning other designs... ...I still have a ParaCommander, and I bet it still works...but it's a museum piece by todays standards... it is after all the 21st century!!! ...................................................................... I'll bet you mean the 1911 (A-1) 45 that the military used to use. Most of the ones I fired were shot out, really loose, and accuracy was terrible. I've heard they're good if they are reworked, but then again there are probably better pistols on the market. It would be interesting to hear what Col. Cooper thinks of the new Glock pistols. My brother uses one in 10MM for police work. I'm not used to this type of pistol and I hated the feel of it and looks of it, but then again they are supposed to be super reliable and accurate. Not having a safety lever to worry about is another nice feature that would allow you to get the first shot off more quickly. My next pistol may be a Glock. But then again skydiving keeps me broke enough and I have enough guns. Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #64 January 22, 2003 I avoid all the technical stuff that surrounds shooting. The bullet-worship about how gee-whiz expansion blah-blah, often overcomes what shooting people is about. It's about putting holes in them or through them. A .45 will put a .45 inch hole in what you shoot it at, it may get bigger in the target. I had a Glock 21 (14 round .45) last time I was out there, and there were two other cops with Glocks. All the 1911 variants began having malfunctions by the end of the week, the Glocks did not. It is a superior design. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #65 January 22, 2003 I've fired over 10,000rds through my G17 (Glock 17, the full sized 9mm). You know how many malfunctions I've had? One and it was my fault, since I was screwing around on the range, limp wristed the shot, eating all the recoil, thus stove piping a round.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #66 January 22, 2003 Out of curiosity, I wonder what you guys think about the idea of taking a discussion about a tragedy involving 14 dead kids, and turning it into a discussion about how cool each of your guns are. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #67 January 22, 2003 The discussion progressed that way, it happens. Atleast we were discussing something that is valid, self defense reliability, etc pertaining to tactical handgun usage and not some of the stupid shit that threads usually fall away into.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #68 January 22, 2003 Quotevalid, self defense Quotethe stupid shit that threads usually fall away into <> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #69 January 22, 2003 So you've now taken to trying to belittle me to win your personal battle against gun rights, nice...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #70 January 22, 2003 Quote It's nice to see people being thoughtful about the topic. I don't care for Moore, as everything I've seen him do he's goading folks. One thing, though. BillV said that ICBM's have only one purpose. I disagree. A launched ICBM serves only one purpose. While it is sitting ready in a silo, it serves a multitude of purposes, from diplomacy to deterrence. I think you can step this back all the way to a clenched fist. My life experience in this regard is skewed, as I carried arms and used them to coerce people for 13 years. Brits as a culture, in my experience, have a distaste for handguns. Likewise, Italians dislike defensive shotguns, as they are associated with Mob violence. Thanks for the review BillVon, I'll have to give Moore another chance. You'll love this... My back yard shares fence line with a place that makes cruise millies (for Subs/ Tommahawks are suspended for now). My father-in-law works there. It gives us a warm and fuzzy feeling to live in Amish Counrty: down wind from TMI and 57feet from HarpoonsWhat more could a boy want( My son is 12months)_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #71 January 22, 2003 Dave, Come on. Be honest. We disagree on this. That is fine. But not every opinion that isn't in favor of widespread gun ownership is "stupid shit". Take my comment as you will. Even where we differ, we can usually refrain from outright insults of the opposing side. The lapse into generalized name-calling about gun ownership opponents is all I was illustrating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #72 January 22, 2003 QuoteThe lapse into generalized name-calling about gun ownership opponents is all I was illustrating. I never did any sort of name calling, I was saying that atleast the topic we turned to was atleast a topic that was related to the origins of the thread, not about something outright stupid like the usual stuff (i.e. boobies, beastiality, etc). You're response to my post looked to be an outright attempt to belittle my intelligence, atleast thats how it seemed to me.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #73 January 22, 2003 Ya'll better not be slamming the 1911. It is by far a better, more reliable pistol than anything on the market today (IMHO). I used to be all into the USP .40 compact for it's da/sa operation. I learned to hate it once I built my first 1911. After seeing and feeling true accuracy and reliability in a safe, single action autoloader, I won't go back to any plastic gun, period (well, except for that FNH five-seven pistol I shot last week--mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm--if I could only get one of those...). My 1911 in .38 super will outshoot me and I like that, plus, the .38 super has better ballistics, flatter trajectory and more energy than a .45, all with less recoil. Anyway, back to the 14-year old terrorists. Let's ban ritalin. That will solve everything. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #74 January 22, 2003 Quote Out of curiosity, I wonder what you guys think about the idea of taking a discussion about a tragedy involving 14 dead kids, and turning it into a discussion about how cool each of your guns are. _Am The event to raise awarness and bowl, was soap boxed by the The Muscial guest speaker, to make it a blanket statemnet that this thread has become.Thus,..."kids? what kids?" occured here._______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobsled92 0 #75 January 22, 2003 Quote Quote Like I said in the rest of my post, it is a major factor but not the only one that explains the issue. Go ride with your local police for a few days and start interviewing the people they arrest regularly. There is white trash, inner city abandonment, and all those other 'family' problems in countries all around the world that are just as bad as the states, but their violence rates don't even come close to the US. I think the breakdown of family is becoming the scapegoat for a lot of Americas ills. _Am Yes and thus we have............eminem_______________________________ If I could be a Super Hero, I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year. http://www.hangout.no/speednews/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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