bowling for columbine

[steve1 5]

And Israel? 40% less murders than even Canada. Hard to claim that a US child is more exposed to outside violence, or feels more threat to his life, than an Israeli child.
..................................................................
Yes, but it is a different type of violence. It's not the violence a kid sees in the home. It's not the type of violence where one parent is hurting another parent or where a child is beaten or hurt in other ways by a parent. Sure there is some of this going on in Israel, but I'd be willing to bet it isn't on as large a scale as you would find in America.

As far as violent video games go. You could probably have a normal kid from a normal family watch a million of these without too great of an adverse affect. But show the same type of video over and over again to an angry teen whose grown up without even the basics in life. I think the results could be very different and likely violent. I know the Japanese culture is very different from our own. One big difference is that they are very family oriented as a whole. As far as Europe, I would wager that as a whole they are too. Sure things may be tough there (in many countries), but often times tough times tends to bind a family together. Maybe that's part of the problem in America. There's just so many fun things to do, and people have the money to do them, that there just isn't time left to do the not so fun things, like raise kids.

The military now uses video simulations and some of their training is very similar to a violent video game. They've done studies on this and proven that soldiers are much more likely to fire their weapon accurately at an enemy soldier. This was not always the case. In many wars soldiers often did not even fire their weapons. If they did they usually missed. It's not an easy thing to take a human life and some couldn't do it. Soldiers trained today are much more likely to hit an enemy soldier. This is mainly due to more realistic training........Steve1

[billvon 3,070]

>If you are saying that the way kids are raised is not important, I
>whole heartedly disagree.

I don't think he's saying that, just that other countries have similar family problems but don't have the gun-related murder rate we do.

>Many of the problems you find in the U.S. are unique and I think it's
> ridiculous to compare this country to others who have different
> circumstances.

I think we do way too much "The US is special! You wouldn't understand. We're unique." We put our pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of the world. We have a lot of the same problems, some unique ones (like the gun-related murder rate.) But by and large, the problems with negligent parents and disaffected children would be as familiar to someone in France or Niger as it is here.

[bigben 0]

Quote

Ben, my brother, I must point out that

YOU OWN A TANK!

It's a friendly tank and costs far too much to use on a regular basis.
Cheers
-Ben

[airtwardo 7]

I agree with you on the parental input effecting the social disposition of most children. As I said in my previous post, the Santee High School shooter was
( I believe) more a product of a dysfunctional and unloving environment than a media violence fed reactionary. The firearm was a convenient instrument with which to return the injustice he felt.
But I again maintain the over exposure to somewhat glorified violence has a definite negative effect on unsophisticated sponge brains that by their very nature have difficulty discerning fantasy from reality.
We are fortunate enough to be able to spend considerable time being involved in the day to day activities of our kids lives. More so than most working parents I'm sure.
Our kids do have their share of 'material ' things, perhaps too much even, as you mentioned in your post...but we always emphasize knowledge and experiences as a possession to be valued greater than the diversions those objects offer.
These kids have gotten to travel extensively these past three years...been in nearly every state, been all over Europe and Asia several times, even returning to their Russian homeland to visit. They have spent time with tremendous role-models.. the likes of Lew Sanborne, Scott Crosfield, taking plane rides with Patty Wagstaff...lunching with Sean Tucker...we have friends that own businesses and are in government.
Yet the competition from Eminem and Brittany... Sly, Bruce, and Arnold, is overwhelming in that the portrayal of an essentially unrealistic life style that carries positive consequences for antisocial behavior overshadows the 'work hard and anything is possible' lesson we try to instill.
I have become much more opinionated and disgusted concerning the portrayal of sex and gratuitous violence in the media, holding views I NEVER though I would...until seeing first hand what I honestly believe to be the negative results brought forth by the aforementioned 'conditioning' .
All that being said, I equate raising kids today to making a jump in high winds on a round in 'the old days'...
You will in time, most likely get hurt, but the rewards far outweigh the risk!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[steve1 5]

"The US is special! You wouldn't understand. We're unique." We put our pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of the world. We have a lot of the same problems, some unique ones (like the gun-related murder rate.)
......................................................................
I never said that we are special or that you don't understand. All I'm saying is that our Culture is different than many others in the world. I think it's important to look at this difference instead of using simplistic statistics which overlook this difference. I mean it's simple to just compare numbers of homicides with another country with a completely different culture and then say that the reason being is that we have the right to own guns in America, and that guns are the problem. It's much more complex than that. But then again we've argued this before and I doubt if rehashing the gun issue is very productive. I wouldn't mind discussing other issues that lead to violence in our country.

[billvon 3,070]

>Yet the competition from Eminem and Brittany... Sly, Bruce, and
> Arnold, is overwhelming in that the portrayal of an essentially
> unrealistic life style that carries positive consequences for antisocial
> behavior overshadows the 'work hard and anything is possible'
> lesson we try to instill.

I would argue that our very government does the same. Most people portray our president as a role model, and thus we have a role model that invades other countries, using guns and bombs, to achieve his goals. (And for the Bushophiles out there - this started well before GW Bush.) In addition, lately we seem to have a media that presents such bombings and killings very antiseptically - much of the coverage of the gulf war looked like a video game. It would be easy to believe that the use of deadly force is what the good guys do and there is very little in the way of messy consequences.

Look at our popular movies - a hero who is shot develops a limp. Well, heck, that's not so bad! Until you've seen what a bullet can do, it might be easy to believe that a gun is not used to kill or maim, it's just used to wound people in the leg so they can be safely dealt with. So it's not that movies portray violence per se, I think. It's more that the consequences of that violence are downplayed, so use of a gun is less worrisome.

If anything, this is, to me, a reason why an Israeli might be less likely to use a gun. They've seen, either in their media or firsthand, the results of such usage in the next city over. They don't want to cause that unless they really have to.

[billvon 3,070]

>I mean it's simple to just compare numbers of homicides with
> another country with a completely different culture and then say that
> the reason being is that we have the right to own guns in America,
> and that guns are the problem.

Right, but still a lot of people say that. One of the points of bowling for columbine is that's just not supported by the evidence. There are a lot of other sound-bite answers - Charlton Heston himself tried the old "well, we have a history of violence" to which Moore replied "and Germany doesn't? And Russia doesn't?"

I think that, as you said, the issue is way more complex than that, and is not due to any one factor. Family problems might be a part of it, but it's not the only problem, because other countries have similar (or worse) problems with dysfunctional families. Violence in movies might be part of it, but it's not the whole problem, because much of Europe gets essentially the same movies we do, and box office draws are similar. I don't think there's a single factor you could point to in our culture that doesn't exist in another culture (materialism? greed?)

Moore thought the one difference is how we seem to live in a lot more fear than other cultures. I think that's a good point, but again, we're not unique there. Iraqis live in a lot more fear than we do.

[mnischalke 0]

I really want to clear something up. The firearms used in the terrorist act at Columbine, obtained illegally in a straw purchase, were not "assault weapons."

Assault weapons are by definition military automatic, shoulder-fired small arms chambered in a small rifle caliber, which trace their roots to the pre-WWII era. They are NOT semi-automatic firearms! Semi-autos are just that--semi-autos. Some semi-autos just look like assault weapons, but, they are not assault weapons.

The Tec-DC9 used by Dylan Klebold at Columbine was a semi-automatic pistol, which fires a 9x19mm cartridge (designed originally for the Luger semi-auto pistol) and reloads at the same rate as any other semi-automatic pistol. The only thing different on this pistol is magazine location (forward of the trigger guard instead of in the grip) and a *very very scary* appearance. OOooh it's black! Sorry, still not an assault weapon.

The Hi-Point Carbine is a rifle, which also fires the 9x19 caliber round, utilizing a 10-round (currently the maximum legal capacity) pistol magazine. It does have a pistol grip, but, it's still not an "assault weapon." It is a semi-automatic rifle designed to fire a pistol cartridge.

The shotguns used were a Stevens double-barrel and a Savage 12-gauge pump, both of which were sawed off, violating current NFA regulations, and therefore illegal.

Applying the same logic of calling the semi-auto firearms assault weapons, we could also call the four knives carried by the two "assault knives." We could also call the 48 CO2 bombs, 27 pipe bombs, 11 1.5gal. propane bombs, 2 20lb. propane bombs and 7 gas/napalm bombs "assault bombs."

Further, we could also classify the "Natural Selection" and "Wrath" t-shirts the two were wearing as "assault t-shirts." Fingerless gloves would also need to be called "assault gloves."

Please understand the logic and call things what they are. Don't use the buzz words just because they sound cool and emphasize some far-off point.

Peace,

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[billvon 3,070]

>Assault weapons are by definition military automatic, shoulder-fired
> small arms chambered in a small rifle caliber, which trace their roots
> to the pre-WWII era. They are NOT semi-automatic firearms!

Guncite, a pro-gun activist group, disagrees. To them, the two weapons (assault weapons and semiautomatic civilian weapons) are essentially identical. In addition, the legal definition of assault weapon includes pure semis. From their website:

--------------------------------------------------------------

Military-style semi-automatic firearms (so-called assault weapons) do not differ materially from non-military style semi-automatic firearms (one bullet is fired for each pull of the trigger) and are no more powerful than other semi-automatic weapons.

. . .current "assault weapon" legislation defines certain semi-automatic weapons as "assault weapons." A semi-automatic weapon is one that fires a round with each pull of the trigger, versus an automatic weapon which continues to shoot until the trigger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted. These kinds of "assault weapons" are sometimes referred to as military-style semi-automatic weapons.

[mnischalke 0]

Still, it's a misnomer. Just because some politicians decided to use a buzzword to classify a certain type of firearm, which is a semi-auto rifle one minute, but becomes an assault rifle if you add a bayonet lug. Assault weapons differ materially, but not generally in appearance. Assault weapons have a trigger system which allows more than one cartridge to be fired with a single trigger pull.

Assault weapons have been for decades and will always be fully-automatic or selective-fire, shoulder-fired, military small-arms utilizing a small rifle cartridge. Guncite did not create the phrase, they are subscribing to the current misuse of it.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

If you are saying that the way kids are raised is not important, I whole heartedly disagree.

I said nothing like that. What I said, was that I think a lot of people in this country are too quick to pin so many of the nations problems on the issue of families. While the family may certainly play a role in a lot of these problems, I don't accept a direct causal relationship.

I do not accept that if a kid grows up in a disfunctional family, he will definately turn into a columbine kid. Nor do I accept that that kid will take to drugs, not hold a job, get arrested, have a child at 16, get an abortion... just because (s)he comes from a dysfunctional family.

Clearly, there are other factors at work beside the strength of the family. This is evident by the fact that by far, most kids who come from dysfunctional families defy the odds, and come out relatively normal. Not only that, far too many kids coming from strong families end up in trouble.

I'll even go a step farther, and say that while the way a kid relates to his family is important, unless we're talking about extreme case, it's a relatively minor influence on the actions he performs later in life.

As much as parents like to think that molding that child into an adult is their responsability, I just don't think they have that much influence. Kids learn way more about life outside the home then they do inside. That has always been, and it will always be true.

It's too easy to place all of the nations ills on the backs of the family. I don't think its nearly that simple.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mnischalke 0]

Quote

Look at our popular movies - a hero who is shot develops a limp.

This is one of my favorite Hollywoodisms: A guy who get shot in the upper left chest and shoulder area lives to fight on in the movies.

Sorry. That's wrong 90% of the time. That area is loaded with arteries, veins and part of the left lung. The shock wave of a .32 is plenty to turn the internals of this area into hamburger, therefore ceasing life within minutes.

Ahhh, the harsh realities of the real world...

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[airtwardo 7]

Why is it do you think we perceive to live in more fear?
Is it because violence is sensationalized in our media... Tragedy always leads the news...Blood sells-ratings and revenue skyrocket.
It is interesting and enlightening to see how news is reported in other countries, i.e.,. France, Great Britain, Japan and Russia.
I liked 'Fox News' when it first started with the "We report-you decide" style....but it too seems to overplay the death and destruction card in the quest for ratings.
Question Bill: Do you personally feel at all fearful living in Sandy Eggo?
I moved from OB to Santee after a gunfight in the living room of my beach front apartment...Then a dude went postal in my Fitness Center 1/2 hour after
I left my workout in ElCajon... 6 months later, I guy I worked with shot & killed two young men at a shooting range off Rt. 8 just east of the Cajon Zone- justifiable homicide ... followed by the school shootings in Santee and weeks later in ElCajon.
Touched in a way by ALL these events, I still never really think I was fearful for my own well being....
But adding munchkins to the equation prompted me to move to an area I perceive to be "safer"
What are your perceptions of where you call home?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mnischalke 0]

btw bill, you omitted something from Gunsite's (whoever Gunsite actually is, I don't know) site.

Quote

A genuine assault weapon, as opposed to a legal definition, is a hand-held, selective fire weapon, which means it's capable of firing in either an automatic or a semiautomatic mode depending on the position of a selector switch. These kinds of weapons are heavily regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and are further regulated in some states.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

I never said that we are special or that you don't understand. All I'm saying is that our Culture is different than many others in the world. I think it's important to look at this difference instead of using simplistic statistics which overlook this difference.

While you've got a valid point, no two countries are alike, one could also argue that no two states are alike, or even no two cities are alike. All these statements are true.

I do think it's fair though, to abstract the social trends in Brooklyn and Detroit and compare them.

Likewise, I think it's fair to compare the social trends in a city like Toronto (pop. aprox 6 million) - that had 60 murders last year, and Chicago (pop. aprox 6 million)- that had 600 murders last year. Both cities have strong economies, both have mixed incomes, both have largely two parent working families. Both have significant single parent problems, both have a racially diverse community. The 'breakdown of the family' is roughly the same in both cities. Residents in both cities watch the same TV shows and movies, listen to the same music. In fact, both cities have a strikingly similar history in virutally all aspects going back to the late 1700's (toronto) and early 1800's (chicago).

Chicago REALLY isn't very different then Toronto, in every aspect - except for the murder rate. It's a perfectly valid comparison, the cultures of the two cities are nearly identical.

Except, in Toronto people go to bed with their front doors unlocked, and in Chicago people have multiple dead-bolts and have guns. Toronto largely doesn't worry about violence, Chicago does.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[airtwardo 7]

Assault weapons are by definition military automatic, shoulder-fired small arms chambered in a small rifle caliber, which trace their roots to the pre-WWII era. They are NOT semi-automatic firearms! Semi-autos are just that--semi-autos. Some semi-autos just look like assault weapons, but, they are not assault weapons.
--------------------------------------------------------
Well stated! Thank you...
Under the commonly mis-used definition, my scoped Browning .243 semi-auto is an "assault weapon"
True only if you are a deer!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 7]

you omitted something from Gunsite's (whoever Gunsite actually is, I don't know) site.
------------------------------------------------


Isn't gunsite the brain child of Jeff Cooper?
The .45 Colt expert and defensive shooting instructor...It was the name of his school at one point in time...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 7]

HEY!!!!
I"M NOT A NEWBIEE ANYMORE!!!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mnischalke 0]

ooops, sorry. I meant Guncite.com (billvon's earlier reference material).

Gunsite is, in fact, a tactical training center in Arizona created 24 years ago from the mind of Jeff Cooper.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[steve1 5]

I do not accept that if a kid grows up in a disfunctional family, he will definately turn into a columbine kid.
.................................................................
(I agree, but the chances of a kid being violent are much greater.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Clearly, there are other factors at work beside the strength of the family.
..............................................................
(Again I agree. There are many other factors, but I think you are minimizing the importance of a proper family. Each day I work as a counselor in an effort to help tough kids. If there is one reason why many kids are in so much trouble it's because they don't have anyone at home who gives a rip about them.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I'll even go a step farther, and say that while the way a kid relates to his family is important, unless we're talking about extreme case, it's a relatively minor influence on the actions he performs later in life.
.................................................................
(I disagree with this statement the most. I think the way a kid turns out has everything to do with the way he was raised. Sure there are some who somehow come out of a dysfunctional family relatively unscathed, but I think this is the exception rather than the rule. Maybe that person who made it, was able to find someone in his life (other than his parents) who cared about him, and this is what made all the difference. In my experience a kid who comes from a good family is rarely in trouble or likely to have violent behavior. There are undoubtedly some exceptions to this, but if you looked more closely at the family unit you would probably find it isn't as functional as it seemed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



It's too easy to place all of the nations ills on the backs of the family. I don't think its nearly that simple.
...................................................................
I agree with you. There are many factors, but the family has a very big impact in my opinion. Steve1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[freefallfreak 0]

Quote

We adopted 3 kids from an orphanage in Russia 3 years ago...

Bless you...you did good...

FFF

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[billvon 3,070]

>Sorry. That's wrong 90% of the time

Agreed. I once saw someone's arm who had been shot just above the wrist. From looking at the wound, there was no way he'd ever be able to use the arm again; there were bone fragments and torn tendons hanging out, and the hand was ischemic. Any use that he did get back was more due to really good surgery than any claim that it was a 'flesh wound.'

Yet in the movies such a wound would be covered by a 4x4 and our hero would just have to favor that hand for a while . . .

[billvon 3,070]

>Still, it's a misnomer. Just because some politicians decided to use a
> buzzword to classify a certain type of firearm . . .

I don't feel strongly either way; the nomenclature of such weapons really doesn't affect me much. It is worth knowing, though, that the _legal_ definition of assault weapons includes semis, whether the decision to call them that was justified or not. That way the reports on things like Columbine make more sense.

Sorta like calling a copy made on a Pitney-Bowes copier a Xerox, or calling transparent tape scotch tape. Not really accurate but at least you know what the other person is talking about.

[billvon 3,070]

>Question Bill: Do you personally feel at all fearful living in Sandy Eggo?

Not from local violence. I'm far more likely to kill myself driving or skydiving than get shot by an evildoer in the streets of Mira Mesa. Someone tried to mug me once, and had my car stolen once (well, he tried to steal it, we caught him.) These happened in NYC and Boston; it still didn't make me live in fear.

[mnischalke 0]

Huh? A photocopy is a photocopy. If you call it a xerox, it does apply as a common generalization.

A semi auto is not an assault rifle. The logic of the xerox does not apply. The logic of calling a stock mustang a fuel-injected funny car better applies. Or, calling an Otter a bomber, may apply better than the generalization of calling a spade a spade. See, they may be cards in the same deck, but they are of different suits all together.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.