Cypres2 cutter broken, any rigger feedback?

[irishrigger 32]

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Were they Cypres or Cypres2 that you have packed? The material of the housing has changed. No damage to the flaps.

We have a very high volume of Mirage on this dropzone, so we re-pack several a week. This could sway statistics, but I am looking for cominalites to help provide a solution.

i dont have to many mirage systems over here,i think i have a total of 6.and just going through my rigging book, there is 3xcypres 1 and 3xcypres 2 units.i modified 2 of those rigs after the service bulletin.
as i said before i find them a pain in the back side to reinstall them into a mirage rig as the cutter chanel can be very tight an akward.i know someone posted that they yse a flexi rod to get it back,i use cypres loop material fingertrap it through the cutter when i remove it and use the same method to reinstall it.but you have to be careful doing that so not to damage the cutter when trying to guide it back.also when i got a new mirage lately from a customer they used waxed thread instead of cypres loop material.

looking at the pics and seeing the damage i think its fair to say that something caused that damage,since there is no damage to the reserve flap,i would say that some external force caused it. its just my guess that it might be during reinstallation or possibly as someone else said by kneeling on it.

so that is my theory,not much help to you i think. however if you find out any more info i like to hear it.
and your right this is a forum for riggers to share and help each other and get some very good information,everything else should be left outside this forum.

rodger

[RiggerLee 61]

Just as a side note. We had a problem a number of years ago on Sara's Presteage. It was a broken cutter wire/cutter. I don't think I ever got the chance to see the cutter it self. The instalation had the cutters comeing from the center of the edge of the flap. The gromets extended slightly beyond the edge of the cap of the PC so there was a constant bending on the cutters. Not the greatest instlation ever. In any case she did get an error report and it turned out to be a cutter problem. That's the only instance I'm aware of but we're talking a relitively small number of rigs.

All old history but it's just an example of the potential for cutters to be damaged.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[Bertt 0]

Your English is fine, and so is your description. I haven't seen that kind of damage, but when I pack a Mirage I try be especially careful about putting pressure on the flap with the cutter because you're pushing down right on top of that cutter and the potential for damage seems pretty large.
I always turn the AAD on and off after I pack a rig with an AAD, just in case.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[spootch 0]

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I am writing here for rigger feedback from the field. I am not interestsed in politics. I am interested in the service and safety of my clients.

Of course I have contacted the manufacturer.

Please don't turn this into anything political. I am after feedback. It used to be I could log into dz.com and share information. Am I wrong in thinking this is still a good place to do so?

Relax everyone. Cypres knows about the problem and its not because some rammy gear wrecking rigger was smashing an aad unit against a wall. (I find it funny how we automatically take a shot at bad rigging or the last rigger when shit breaks or goes wrong) Heres a picture of one I sent to get fixed not too long ago.
They were surprised to see this one come out of a Jav as units with simmilar problems came out of rigs with the cutter in the flaps.
I will not join in on the political debate by saying BAN CYPRES !!!!!

[theonlyski 8]

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I am writing here for rigger feedback from the field. I am not interestsed in politics. I am interested in the service and safety of my clients.

Of course I have contacted the manufacturer.

Please don't turn this into anything political. I am after feedback. It used to be I could log into dz.com and share information. Am I wrong in thinking this is still a good place to do so?

Relax everyone. Cypres knows about the problem and its not because some rammy gear wrecking rigger was smashing an aad unit against a wall. (I find it funny how we automatically take a shot at bad rigging or the last rigger when shit breaks or goes wrong) Heres a picture of one I sent to get fixed not too long ago.
They were surprised to see this one come out of a Jav as units with simmilar problems came out of rigs with the cutter in the flaps.
I will not join in on the political debate by saying BAN CYPRES !!!!!

I wasn't trying to take a shot at the last rigger, just seeing if there is a connection and possibly see what the reason they broke is, based on that riggers technique.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[spootch 0]

I wasnt taking a shot at you

[koppel 4]

what were the serial numbers of the cutters?

it is possible that it is from a confined batch, similar to the 'smilie' disc issue where it was a known quantity of product that had problems and can be traced.

As a rigger since cutters became under scrutiny a few years ago I have started keeping a track of serial numbers or series numbers of cutters of all brands along with battery info etc.

Pretty easy to find out if this problem is a certain batch or if it is a wide problem.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[hcsvader 1]

This was my cypres that Koppel is refering to.
the cutter broke where the wires meet the cutter cylinder while it being installed in my mirage.
As far as I am concerned it was damaged due to poor rigging when it was being pushed thru the sleeve. Dont push the unit via the wiring.
This seems to be a somewhat common thing on mirage rigs. There are a couple other threads about this happening on dz.com but I can't find them.

Cypres replaced the cutter for free when I contacted them.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[jojo0815 0]

I always use a piece of super tack threaded through the flap to pull the cutter through. That's also how they come from Mirage when you get a brand new rig. I have seen this damage on G2, G3 and G4 containers. If it is possible to damage the cutter while pushing on the cable there is something seriously wrong. If it is possible to damage the cutter while closing the rig, then what about the user leaning against it, or packing his main and kneeling on it. What if you drop your rig onto the packing mat. From what I can recall the old Cypres cutters use some kind of rubber sleeve to mate the cable to the cutter. I have seen those pull out but the new Cypres2 cutters are using hard plastic instead. It actually kind of looks like bakelite to me. In any case I think this is a design flaw and damaged cutters should be replaced at no cost to the customer.

[riggerrob 643]

"

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... What if you drop your rig onto the packing mat? ...

"

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Dropping your rig (onto concrete) fell out of fashion a couple of years (circa 1994) after Cypres 1 was introduced ... something about too many cracked battery boxes ...
Sure Airtec repaired a bunch of battery boxes for free and they did invent a stiffener, but the bad habit should have disappeared forever.

[spootch 0]

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This was my cypres that Koppel is refering to.
the cutter broke where the wires meet the cutter cylinder while it being installed in my mirage.
As far as I am concerned it was damaged due to poor rigging when it was being pushed thru the sleeve. Dont push the unit via the wiring.
This seems to be a somewhat common thing on mirage rigs. There are a couple other threads about this happening on dz.com but I can't find them.

Cypres replaced the cutter for free when I contacted them.

I dunno Rob, by just putting a straight push on the wire end you wont crack the plastic. I am quite sure the damage comes from the plastic being too hard of a compound (or too soft), and the flexing of the rig as it is being used.
The cutter is not as well protected as it would be in the pack.
As mentioned before it's a mfg problem along with a cutter placement issue.
On a side note Vigil has a softer compound at the junction of their cables. I have yet to see damage on the cutter end, but have seen damage to the plastic at the head unit (not the cable itself , but the plastic stiffner, simmilar to the ribs on a plug in).

[BrianM 1]

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"

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... What if you drop your rig onto the packing mat? ...

"

......................................................................

Dropping your rig (onto concrete) fell out of fashion a couple of years (circa 1994) after Cypres 1 was introduced ... something about too many cracked battery boxes ...
Sure Airtec repaired a bunch of battery boxes for free and they did invent a stiffener, but the bad habit should have disappeared forever.

Yep, you are right, but try to get every single jumper to care about that.

Besides, there are other ways to apply forces to a rig. Ever see someone land like the attached picture?

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[riggerrob 643]

Oh yes!
I have made a few landings like that, but most of them were before Cypres was invented!
Hah!
Hah!

[jojo0815 0]

So let me just ask a question. Given that there are many Cypres 2 out there and many Mirages, how many broken cutters does it take for the manufacturer of that part to take action. Or does it actually take somebody getting hurt for that to happen? If so how many people have to get hurt? I find it curious that one manufacturer gets publicly hung while with another one it just gets swept under the carpet.

[airdvr 210]

The magic question...thanks for asking.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[LouDiamond 1]

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Yep, we were found few cutters with damage like this..

My idea - its damaging when you put bottom flap (on tight rig).
Cutter bending on the edge of PC cup, and if rigger will additionally push it from above (like knee-push) - cutter can brake quite easelly.

Sorry for bad English

I have experienced the same thing as well once. While I am fairly certain it was due to rigging, I have to agree that due to it's location the cutter gets stressed during packing and anytime pressure is applied to the rig, like leaning against the aircraft while seated or any pressure on the flaps after being packed.

Personally, I feel this is in large a rigging problem caused by the design/location of the cutter. In the case of rigging, when a knee plate is placed over the #3 flap to close the last flap, a good deal of pressure as well as cranking is going on directly on top of the cutter and may weaken if not break the cutter at that junction. Rigging might weaken the point of failure and subsequent pressure after packing may cause the break but my feeling is that the breaks occur on/during the repack/closing of the flaps.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[pchapman 279]

I have heard from someone in the industry that both Mirage and Airtec are aware of the issue and have been talking about it. I don't expect instant solutions but it's better than nothing.

[jojo0815 0]

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I have experienced the same thing as well once. While I am fairly certain it was due to rigging, I have to agree that due to it's location the cutter gets stressed during packing and anytime pressure is applied to the rig, like leaning against the aircraft while seated or any pressure on the flaps after being packed.

Personally, I feel this is in large a rigging problem caused by the design/location of the cutter.

Airtec recommends for cutters to be placed ON TOP of the PC by the manufacturer that implements the Cypres into their rigs. So how can it be a rigging or rig manufacturer's problem if the part doesn't hold up in the recommended location?

On another note, does anyone know when Airtec changed the material on the back of the cutter from the rubber to hard plastic?

[LouDiamond 1]

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I have experienced the same thing as well once. While I am fairly certain it was due to rigging, I have to agree that due to it's location the cutter gets stressed during packing and anytime pressure is applied to the rig, like leaning against the aircraft while seated or any pressure on the flaps after being packed.

Personally, I feel this is in large a rigging problem caused by the design/location of the cutter.

Airtec recommends for cutters to be placed ON TOP of the PC by the manufacturer that implements the Cypres into their rigs. So how can it be a rigging or rig manufacturer's problem if the part doesn't hold up in the recommended location?

On another note, does anyone know when Airtec changed the material on the back of the cutter from the rubber to hard plastic?

As I explained above, it can be a rigging issue because of the way some riggers close the container (tensioning device/knee board) and the fact that the portion in question lays on the edge of the PC hat and creates a ledge where combined with downward pressure on the flap, it can break. As a rigger, I cannot move/position the cutter in such a way that the failure point doesn't sit in that position, it's held there by the nature of the design. Because of this, the possibility exist where a rigger doing everything right, could cause this damage inadvertently simply by it being a repetitive point of stress that compounds over time and or muscling the flaps closed. If not subjected to the stress that this configuration/placement causes, the cutter damage would not happen.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[jojo0815 0]

I strongly disagree about it being a rigging problem, nor a container design issue. Airtec changed the material on the back of the cutter and now this is happening.n it never happened with the old rubber part. Since the unit won't complain about the cutter being disconnected after boot it becomes a big safety issue.

[faulk04 0]

random newb question here, if the cutter breaks will the AAD turn on? Or is the only way to notice something is wrong is during a inspection or reserve repack?

[-ftp- 0]

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random newb question here, if the cutter breaks will the AAD turn on? Or is the only way to notice something is wrong is during a inspection or reserve repack?

the message depends on manufacturer and how the cutter is broken. It might fail the cutter test and give an error, but it might not.

[mjosparky 4]

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I dunno Rob, by just putting a straight push on the wire end you wont crack the plastic.

But it does go against the way to do it in the SB.

Sparky

http://www.miragesys.com/media/download/MiragePSB1204Procedures.pdf

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[LouDiamond 1]

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I strongly disagree about it being a rigging problem, nor a container design issue. Airtec changed the material on the back of the cutter and now this is happening.n it never happened with the old rubber part. Since the unit won't complain about the cutter being disconnected after boot it becomes a big safety issue.

I see your point. However, in addressing the OP's question/situation as to how it can happen, all pieces of the puzzle must be looked at. It's a combination of several things obviously that can cause this, one being as you pointed out, the change in the material on the cutter. Having packed the system that this similar breakage happened on well over 20 times personally, it never occurred and there was never anything to indicate that the failure point was weakening. It was on later subsequent packing that the unit cracked/broke as seen in the pictures and was discovered on re-opening and examining the system during a repack.

The simple solution/answer would be for Airtec to go back to the original materials. However, it is possible to pack the current version and not have breakage occur a majority of the time, however in some instances it does happen. In my experience, as I stated above, I think a contributing factor in all of this that can lead to the breakage is also attributable to rigging methods/techniques and by nature of the design of the container. All 3 of these items seem to present a situation where given the right circumstances, this can occur is what I am saying.

My guess is if this was presented to both Airtec and Mirage they would both say it was a rigging issue and nothing was wrong with their design/materials as they are able to install the unit without having it break as are a large portion of the riggers in the field.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[jojo0815 0]

You do have a point. Having packed hundreds of these system myself my main worry with this situation lies with it being damaged AFTER the packjob is completed. If there is repeated stress on the cutter during normal or excessive use it would be possible to sever the connection altogether. If the AAD does not register the cutter being severed after its initial boot sequence a jumper could be jumping all day with a non functioning unit.