turtlespeed 226 #26 November 11, 2003 Well that explains it, it wasn't his countrymen about to be dead.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #27 November 11, 2003 Really ? then it was a good one, because I agreed with every last part of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #28 November 11, 2003 Quote Actually she herself has said she was NEVER raped. It is interesting to read HER accounts and opinion of the ordeal, very enligtening. *** That's not the account I just read... I believe that if an enemy combatant is 'holding' a weapon and refuses to put it down standard course of action is to kill him. In this 21st century War of Terrorism... information and now more than ever a weapon. You're not classified as a prisoner of war until you relinquish all your weapons. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #29 November 11, 2003 One should note that he discharged his weapon into a discharge barrel, there was no possibilty of hitting the prisioner... the threat of phisical harm has alway been an effective means of soliciting information... the problem with it is that one cannot determine the credibility of information gained in this manner... I disagree that this was a case of torture... if he had shot at the wall next to the prisoner's head or shot him in the leg, I would agree with you, but not into a discharge barrel. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #30 November 11, 2003 Quote One should note that he discharged his weapon into a discharge barrel That's not in the accounting above. And does change the circumstances if true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #31 November 11, 2003 You're correct, it is not in the account in the original post, but it was reported, by several TV outlets, when the story first came out last week. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #32 November 11, 2003 Its Remembrance day here, I think its Veteran's day across the pond. I think its pretty poor taste to be dissing any member of your/our/the armed forces today.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #33 November 11, 2003 And here I am, a vetran, at work... BTW... I think he should take the CM... I doubt any jury would convict. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #34 November 11, 2003 Quote And here I am, a vetran, at work... BTW... I think he should take the CM... I doubt any jury would convict. J I hear ya. I did the Desert Storm tour. Today - at work as well. I am, however proud that the company I work for was able to build the local Veteran's Memorial last year, and are going to expand it in the near future. Somethings make you feel so good inside that it just makes life worth living through the ones that don't.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #35 November 11, 2003 No doubt......They'll probably drop the charges just so they won't get all the bad press. Anyone in the military ever needs a lawyer I know a good one. www.militarydef.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #36 November 11, 2003 one of the reasons for posting this today. Time for vets (and non-vets) to come to the Lt Col's aid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #37 November 11, 2003 Quote Unfortunately it appears as though the lines were drawn once again by armchair quarterbacks not familiar with the realities of a war zone. Yep, maybe we should lock it down a little further and make those pesky terrorists eat DRY oatmeal next time. With NO milk and NO sugar. That's teach the bastards. Well ok, just NOT MUCH sugar. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #38 November 11, 2003 This guy is a hero - no question. Bob Barr had some interesting commentary on the situation on O'Reilly last night that sort of made sense, however. He was of the opinion this entire court martial deal is a show and that he'll be acquitted.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #39 November 11, 2003 Quote He was of the opinion this entire court martial deal is a show and that he'll be acquitted. The sad part is...one way or the other this guy's career is through. He has lost already....now it's all about damage control. The military is really good at doing things like this to people. Hopefully he'll end up in a nice cushy consulting job somewhere making 3 or 4 times what he did in the Army. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #40 November 11, 2003 Quote November 3, 2003 Now let's see if I get this straight. An officer whose Tikrit-based troops have come under attack from Saddam loyalists becomes aware that an Iraqi detainee has information about a planned ambush of his Soldiers, but the prisoner isn't being cooperative. Why don't you run for office and fix all the problems of the US Army.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #41 November 11, 2003 Quote Remember... "What you permit, you promote." So if you permit torture, you promote torture?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #42 November 11, 2003 Quote Why don't you run for office and fix all the problems of the US Army. I could be then the I'd have to deport you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #43 November 11, 2003 Quote So if you permit torture, you promote torture? yes but there wasn't any. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #44 November 11, 2003 Quote The sad part is...one way or the other this guy's career is through. He has lost already.. That's the bad part, bad for him worse for the Army and the USA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gremlin 0 #45 November 11, 2003 So if you permit torture, you promote torture? The question here is looking at the incident in the circumstances at the time. Was the colonel right in the action he took. He was trying to protect his men and in this one instance deemed this the most effective way to do it. He was not promoting torture throughout his command as he was probably very aware that frequently torture does not work. The Israelies Officially promote torture of their suspects (following a recent court ruling) but do not seem to benefit from it. The question to ask yourself is - If you were in his shoes, with your mens lives at risk, what would you do?I'm drunk, you're drunk, lets go back to mine.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #46 November 11, 2003 Quote The question to ask yourself is - If you were in his shoes, with your mens lives at risk, what would you do? No, the question to ask yourself is; do the ends justify the means. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gremlin 0 #47 November 11, 2003 ***No, the question to ask yourself is; do the ends justify the means. problem with that is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.I'm drunk, you're drunk, lets go back to mine.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #48 November 12, 2003 You guys are discussing the incident as if you have all the information. AFAIK the thread is based on an article on a military (support) web site. We do not know all the facts. So who knows, did he just fire his gun or did he do a mock execution (which is torture). Did he beat up the prisoner first, who knows. I can't make a judgment call without knowing more about it. However, in principle you have to very careful about crossing the line. Once you are on the other side bad things happen. The US military was involved in a lot bad "shit" in Vietnam (regarding treating prisoners) and has been careful not to repeat this. You do not want to loose the moral high ground....--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #49 November 12, 2003 Quote No, the question to ask yourself is; do the ends justify the means. In this case, absolutely. This is a war, after all. His actions were based on intel, he saved the lives of the troops in his command, and he did this all without injury to his captive. What would you do Kevin if the situation were somewhat different, say you were in the Lt. Col's shoes, acting on good intel and trying to protect the lives of your friends, or maybe closer to home, your family? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #50 November 12, 2003 Quote Actually she herself has said she was NEVER raped. It is interesting to read HER accounts and opinion of the ordeal, very enligtening Wow, you read the whole book, which was written, edited, and published in less than 4 months, and only released yesterday, already? Kewlio! I haven't read the book. But I do have to say that I think you might be mistaken. She didn't say she hadn't been raped, she said she doesn't remember if she was or not. She also, according to her, doesn't remember a whole lot of the capture and the first day or so. If she doesn't remember it, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It only means she doesn't remember it. And that sort of "interrogation technique " is about as difficult to withstand and handle as any other. I am not surprised she doesn't remember it. Two additional notes: ~while the Iraqi Drs (those of the "let's cut off her leg so we can fly her to Bahgdad more easily" fame) say there is no evidence of rape, other Drs say there is. ~It is a known "weapon" of torture and interrogation in that particular regime to rape a person; and it happened to others (from the Gulf War, IIRC...I am not sure about Shoshanna Johnson.). As to the Lt. Col issue, one shot was discharged into a discharge barrel, and the other one may/may not have been shot at right angles (in other words, the weapon was NOT pointed at the bad guy) to startle him into understanding that the information was to be given NOW, not tomorrow, not over breakfast of oatmeal, but NOW. I think, however it ends up for West, that this sends a serious and chilling message to those who are dealing with terrorists and insurgents daily. My concern is simply how many of our troops will back down from interrogating the bad guys efficiently enough to prevent a bombing, raid, or other very dangerous event, not receive the information in a timely manner, and we lose more of our troops because of the precedence this CM is setting? And yes, I am 100% behind West. As this was not a physical assault, but a psychological one, and it produced the needed results - information was gained in time to prevent an attack from occurring with potential significant loss of American and Iraqi lives - I do back him for getting what he needed. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
