Pencil-Whipping Fail

[Calvin19 0]

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>I AGREE... If you pencil pack, make up a rigger's name and seal.

There it is.

[FreeflyGoat 0]

I turned in my rig to a different rigger once, and she read me the riot act for penciling the previous riggers pack job. I mean chewed my azz good. Not long after that my original rigger came up to me and said she told him what had happened and that he didn't really care.

I've now had rigs come back to me where I could tell my name had been penciled. I'm going to start suggesting they just put a different name. I can always show the FAA my riggers logbook and say "Wasn't me"

_________________________
goat
derka jerka bukkake jihad

[tdog 0]

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I've now had rigs come back to me where I could tell my name had been penciled. I'm going to start suggesting they just put a different name. I can always show the FAA my riggers logbook and say "Wasn't me"

... then have to pay a lawyer to show the jury in the family's wrongful death lawsuit claiming you packed an expired AAD the same log book and convince them that it was not you...

[Remster 30]

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WTF isn't the expiration date of the pack job put on the pdc along with the date it was packed? Might eliminate the need for a pencil a lot of times.

Because expiration dates can vary by area (US vs Canada vs Europe etc...)

Remster

[LouDiamond 1]

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I've now had rigs come back to me where I could tell my name had been penciled. I'm going to start suggesting they just put a different name. I can always show the FAA my riggers logbook and say "Wasn't me"

... then have to pay a lawyer to show the jury in the family's wrongful death lawsuit claiming you packed an expired AAD the same log book and convince them that it was not you...

Honestly, that can happen even if you have implemented a ink stamp/numbering/RFID tag system. You can still get named,dragged into court and have to spend money on a lawyer only to present your high speed logging system to the court and be found innocent. At the end of the day, you're still out the time and money.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[hackish 8]

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Honestly, that can happen even if you have implemented a ink stamp/numbering/RFID tag system. You can still get named,dragged into court and have to spend money on a lawyer only to present your high speed logging system to the court and be found innocent. At the end of the day, you're still out the time and money.

I actually tried putting an RFID tag into a seal as an experiment. It didn't like the seal press and wouldn't read afterwards. If you could get all the riggers in on it you could put a passive RFID in the AAD pocket with little or no chance of it interfering with anything but how often would that be left in? My first dozen or so packjobs I slipped a small piece of paper in the AAD pouch with the date and now 3 years later I found 2 of them this year.

In the big scope of things I don't think pencil packing is that big of a problem. I've seen the mystery disappearing packing card, also the mystery sharpie line across a packjob above.

A reserve even packed for years is still more likely to work than not. Whatever we riggers do to try and stop pencil packing, someone will come up with a way to slip one through.

-Michael

[airtwardo 7]

Dual Packing cards 'was' the method of choice back when skydivers were smarter than their riggers...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Ronaldo 0]

If a jumper pencil packs or jumps an expired reserve and end up using it but dies as a result of a clear error on the repack. Is the previous rigger free of any charges because it was expired? I know the DZO and pilot would be in trouble but I was wondering if the rigger would be so

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[LouDiamond 1]

I think that scenario falls into a legal category and could go either way. However, if it can be proved that there is a forged name(yours or someone else's) on the PDC, I would think that the burden of proof would be on the prosecution to prove that it was your pack job and not someone else's. Once you seal it and it leaves your control you have no way of knowing what the user will do with it or to it. Lawyers and wuffo jurors/courts are the portion of the equation where it can become unpredictable/unknowable.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[riggerrob 643]

I&Rs last 180 days in Canada.
I&Rs last 180 days in the USA.
I&Rs last 180 days in most European countries.

If an American citizen is jumping a parachute TSOed in the USA - and recently repacked by an FAA Rigger - he is obliged to follow FARs until they become repugnant to local laws.
IOW When in doubt ... Americans jumping overseas must follow American rules.

What is the fuss????

[BrianM 1]

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If an American citizen is jumping a parachute TSOed in the USA - and recently repacked by an FAA Rigger - he is obliged to follow FARs until they become repugnant to local laws.
IOW When in doubt ... Americans jumping overseas must follow American rules.

So according to you, the U.S. has jurisdiction in foreign countries? Not a chance. The laws that apply are those of whatever jurisdiction the jumper happens to be in at the moment.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[riggerrob 643]

...

[BrianM 1]

First of all, parachutes aren't registered, and skydivers don't have FAA licenses.

I suspect that U.S. registered aircraft must follow U.S. laws in foreign countries because those countries allow aircraft registered in other countries to operate as long as they are registered somewhere, and meet the requirements of the country in which they are registered. I can't drive an unregistered car in the U.S., but I can drive my Canadian-registered car across the border into the U.S.; however, I must follow the traffic laws of whichever U.S. state I happen to be in - not of my home province.

There's also this:

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Sec. 91.703 — Operations of civil aircraft of U.S. registry outside of the United States.
(a) Each person operating a civil aircraft of U.S. registry outside of the United States shall—

(1) When over the high seas, comply with annex 2 (Rules of the Air) to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and with §§91.117(c), 91.127, 91.129, and 91.131;

(2) When within a foreign country, comply with the regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there in force;

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(because the FARS are written in blood and represent best-business-practice).

He always has the option of maintaining his parachute to tighter standards than FARs, but he would be reckless to do less maintenance.

Nice straw man argument (though I will say that those jumpers in countries with one year pack cycles might disagree that they are being reckless).

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[riggerrob 643]

"...

[BrianM 1]

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You forgot that ...

No I didn't.

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P.S. What is a straw man argument?????????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[danielcroft 2]

How about an RFID in the PDC that the Rigger programs with date of expiry? Yeah people could hack it but if you had say an encryption key for each rigger and an public...

ok, I'll stop now...

[riggerrob 643]

In small quantities, the RFID would cost as much as the repack.
Besides, half the riggers cannot spell RFID.
I would not recognize an RFID if I tripped over it!
Hah!

[danielcroft 2]

If you're tripping over an RFID, you've got more serious problems to worry about.

I occurred to me that electronically recording the rigger's information with the PDC would be a good way to do this but then I started thinking with my IT geek's hat on and it just got really complicated.

[theonlyski 8]

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If you're tripping over an RFID, you've got more serious problems to worry about.

I occurred to me that electronically recording the rigger's information with the PDC would be a good way to do this but then I started thinking with my IT geek's hat on and it just got really complicated.

The problem is that RFID's are too easy to hack. Not to mention that not all riggers even own a computer, much less have internet, or would want to invest in the RFID reading hardware, but then, where will you centrally locate all of the records, and make it offline available to DZ's that can (and have) operated without internet and in some cases, after storms, without power?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[theonlyski 8]

I've got the solution...

Make the AAD manufacturers put a rigger mode where we can set the due date, and if it hasn't been repacked by then, make the AAD fire the reserve.

(Not available in Argus)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[popsjumper 2]

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I've got the solution...

Make the AAD manufacturers put a rigger mode where we can set the due date, and if it hasn't been repacked by then, make the AAD fire the reserve.

(Not available in Argus)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[piisfish 140]

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I've got the solution...

what about time limited links on the reserve ? apply a chemical on the links which would take 180 days to dissolve

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[theonlyski 8]

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I've got the solution...

what about time limited links on the reserve ? apply a chemical on the links which would take 180 days to dissolve

Yeah, except it would seep to the lines and risers, not to mention the freebag, container and canopy.

Not to mention that at 179 days, it's probably done it's job and if you need to go for a reserve ride, you're fucked.

I like my AAD idea. Just don't anyone tell rhys that I'm not including the Argus for not cutting loops.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[piisfish 140]

but with your solution, people without AAD's or Argiis are not included.
my solution is good for everyone.,..
or what about a KaP3 style AOD, with a timer set at 180days, and only riggers could reset it

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[popsjumper 2]

Warning!
This parachute will self-destruct after 180 days!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239