FBI's 2002 crime report out--dropping again

[mnischalke 0]

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FBI REPORTS DOWNWARD SPIRAL CONTINUES . . . Violent crime reported to law enforcement in 2002 decreased 0.9 percent over the previous year, with 1.4 million estimated offenses. Five-year and 10-year trend data revealed the estimated number of violent crimes was 7.0 percent lower than the 1998 number and 25.9 percent less than the 1993 number.

The weapon data collected for murder, robbery and aggravated assault showed that offenders used personal weapons, such as hands, fists, and feet, in 31.2 percent of these crimes. Firearms were involved in 26.8 percent of murders, robberies and aggravated assaults, and knives or cutting instruments were used in 14.9 percent. Other types of weapons were used in 27.1 percent of murders, robberies, and aggravated assaults.

See more details in a Federal Bureau of Identification news release.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[jfields 0]

Mike,

From your own source:

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The violent crime of murder is the most serious crime in the UCR hierarchy. An estimated 16,204 murders took place in 2002, a 1.0-percent increase over the 2001 estimate.

and

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In 2002, 71.1 percent of reported murders involved a firearm. Offenders used knives or cutting instruments in 13.4 percent of the murders, personal weapons (hands, fist, feet, etc.) in 7.1 percent, and blunt objects in 5.1 percent of incidents. Other weapon types (poison, arson, etc.) accounted for the remainder.

[sarcasm]

It sure is a good thing that firearms are used responsibly for personal defense.

[/sarcasm]

[happythoughts 0]

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[sarcasm] It sure is a good thing that firearms are used responsibly for personal defense.
[/sarcasm]

In Florida, the crime rate has dropped six times faster than the national average according to the FBI.

The governor thinks it is because we made crime against the law. The 10-20-life law is basically this, 10 years for committing a crime with a gun. 20 for shooting someone, life for killing them. Law abiding citizens don't worry about those laws.

Florida Dept of Law Enforcement web page

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FBI Preliminary Crime Statistics Report 2002 Shows Crime in Florida on the Decline
June 16, 2003

~~Data Shows Volume of reported Index Crimes in State Below National Average~~

Governor Jeb Bush today expressed optimism about a preliminary crime statistics report released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the year 2002. ... The report shows that in the United States the overall volume of these crimes decreased 0.2 percent. In Florida, the volume of reported Index Crimes decreased six times as much as the national rate, falling 1.2 percent in the same time period.

... "In Florida, we have seen an even greater decrease in crime, thanks to the dedicated efforts of more than 40,000 law-enforcement officers and strong deterrents passed since 1999, including 10-20-Life, 3-Strikes, and other tougher criminal penalties. Our focus on reducing violent crime by properly punishing criminal behavior is working, as evidenced by our 2002 crime rate, which was the lowest seen in Florida in 30 years."

[mnischalke 0]

Not to mention that Florida is a "shall-issue" concealed carry state with reciprocity with 23 other states.

Crime deterrence is not 911. It's the possibility of a .45 Kimber CDP in granny's purse.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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The violent crime of murder is the most serious crime in the UCR hierarchy. An estimated 16,204 murders took place in 2002, a 1.0-percent increase over the 2001 estimate.

by your own admission and in continuance...

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A comparison of the data from 5 and 10 years ago showed that the 2002 estimate decreased 4.5 percent from the 1998 estimate and 33.9 percent from the 1993 estimate.

interestingly

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There were an estimated 95,136 forcible rapes in 2002, an increase of 4.7 percent when compared to the 2001 estimate.

and

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There were an estimated 420,637 robberies in 2002, a 0.7-percent decrease from the 2001 number. The robbery rate nationwide was 145.9 per 100,000 inhabitants, a decrease of 1.7 percent from the 2001 rate.

I am quite sure those two numbers would be dramatically lower if the majority of law-abiding citizens, especially (and more importantly) women, were trained in the defensive use of a firearm and carried concealed on a regular basis. I would bet my life on it. Those who would disagree, bet the lives of their loved ones on their theory.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[billvon 3,070]

>I am quite sure those two numbers would be dramatically lower if the
> majority of law-abiding citizens, especially (and more importantly)
> women, were trained in the defensive use of a firearm and carried
>concealed on a regular basis.

And the gun-related homicide numbers would be way up. No free lunches.

[mnischalke 0]

Or so you assume...

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[jfields 0]

Why should Bill or I assume any differently?

The track record of Americans with firearms is abysmal. Why should we suddenly get the notion that with even more firearms, the trend of violent crime with firearms will spontaneously reverse and drop? It hasn't worked so far.

[jfields 0]

Happythoughts,

I have no problem with harsh penalties against criminals. Never have. I agree that if you are law abiding, they shouldn't worry you at all. I'd even extend them further.

Say, some changes to the 10-20-life law:

Instead of:
The 10-20-life law is basically this, 10 years for committing a crime with a gun. 20 for shooting someone, life for killing them.

Make it:
10 years for committing a crime with a gun, or having your gun used in a crime.
20 for shooting someone, or having your gun used to shoot someone
Life for killing them (maybe 20 years if your gun is used to kill someone).

That would give a serious incentive to gun owners to be resonposible for their firearms, while not in any way infringing on their ability to own them.

[ScottishJohn 25]

35 % of all statistics is made up.

I read this thread and I don't know if crime is going up or down.

We get these same statistics from our police here in Britain but they do nothing to comfort victims of crime or people that live in high crime areas.
I would prefer if there was less statistitions sitting behind a desk and more police on the streets solving crime.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers

[kallend 2,106]

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Or so you assume...

Why is it OK for you to assume ("I am quite sure that") but not for Bill. Bill's assumption is based on history and experience, yours isn't.

On the whole I'd prefer to be robbed than murdered.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

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Why should Bill or I assume any differently?

The track record of Americans with firearms is abysmal. Why should we suddenly get the notion that with even more firearms, the trend of violent crime with firearms will spontaneously reverse and drop? It hasn't worked so far.

Gun owners also have an abysmal record of killing their family and friends through carelessness.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jfields 0]

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Gun owners also have an abysmal record of killing their family and friends through carelessness.

That is absolutely correct. But Mike has already established to his satisfaction that the lives of innocent people (including children) are irrelevant, and that more guns, rather than less, are the answer. I'm not sure about the logic, but that seems to be the situation.

[mnischalke 0]

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Gun owners also have an abysmal record of killing their family and friends through carelessness.

Pull that right off the Handgun Control website?

Try to back it up with real numbers, not just a few (albeit tragic) cases.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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Why is it OK for you to assume ("I am quite sure that") but not for Bill. Bill's assumption is based on history and experience, yours isn't.

History and esperience? show me

What I said I would bet my life on is an easy bet for me. Or, is it merely a coincidence that enacting concealed carry laws are routinely followed by sharp crime reductions in those states? Is it merely coincidence that violent crime has reduced by 25% over the course of a decade of dozens and dozens of new states adopting concealed carry rights for their citizens? What about the coincidence that Washington D.C. has one of the highest crime rates of any civilized city, yet it's residents are not lawfully allowed to own firearms.

and, as you say, you'd "prefer to be robbed than murdered?" Well, sir, without a way to defend yourself, you have no say in the matter you can be murdered just as easily as robbed--with a strong possiblity of both. With the enactment of tougher penalties for violent crime, a robber is less prone to leave any witnesses. All I can say is I hope you're not ever involved in either, but if I see it happening, I will come help you.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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But Mike has already established to his satisfaction that the lives of innocent people (including children) are irrelevant...

Where?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[jfields 0]

About two posts up, for example. Repeatedly in every firearms debate you enter on the forum.

Every time you talk about how a few accidental deaths are insignificant compared to the "rights" of gun owners, or the "huge" numbers of times firearms are used for self defense.

Come on, Mike. At least you can own up to your stance on the issue.

[mnischalke 0]

So in your logic, I am saying that since a much smaller number of people are killed accidentally with a firearm, than say, drunk driving, I am considering these lives to be insignificant?

Wow. Thanks for telling me what I mean. Fuck, why don't you come do all my thinking for me?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[kallend 2,106]

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Gun owners also have an abysmal record of killing their family and friends through carelessness.

Pull that right off the Handgun Control website?

Try to back it up with real numbers, not just a few (albeit tragic) cases.

Look it up for yourself - http://www.cdc.gov

More firearms accidental deaths since 01/01/01 than terrorist caused deaths INCLUDING 9/11, yet we are "at war" with terrorism beacuse the threat is so grave.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jfields 0]

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Fuck, why don't you come do all my thinking for me?

Evidently, somebody needs to.

There are two choices:
1) You fail to comprehend the consequences of gun ownership in America.
2) You don't care about the consequences.

If neither of those were true, you wouldn't trivialize victims and ignore the mountain of evidence that shows massive problems with our current stance and laws relating to gun ownership. I'm not saying they should be banned, but you are unwilling to even entertain sensible measures to curb the rampant and senseless death widespread irresponsible ownership brings.

[happythoughts 0]

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. I'm not saying they should be banned, but you are unwilling to even entertain sensible measures to curb the rampant and senseless death widespread irresponsible ownership brings.

I guess the problem that people have is this, the "sensible measures" are never defined. They always end up as a ban.

[kallend 2,106]

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. I'm not saying they should be banned, but you are unwilling to even entertain sensible measures to curb the rampant and senseless death widespread irresponsible ownership brings.

I guess the problem that people have is this, the "sensible measures" are never defined. They always end up as a ban.

A ban can never work - Pandora's box is open.

The way I see it, everyone owning a gun has de-facto joined the Militia, and per the 2nd Amendment has agreed to be well regulated. So just go about using this resource - they all go on exercises for one week out of the year where they learn marksmanship, gun safety, etc. and have their weapons inventoried.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnischalke 0]

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Look it up for yourself - http://www.cdc.gov

Did that.

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More firearms accidental deaths since 01/01/01 than terrorist caused deaths INCLUDING 9/11, yet we are "at war" with terrorism beacuse the threat is so grave.

Where's this number located? I really didn't think statistics were compiled that quickly. What's the relevance of this statistic?

Here's some interesting statistics for ya:

There were 34,000 skydivers with a membership to the USPA in 2001. (USPA)

There were 74,000,000 gun owners in America, by the lowest 2000 estimate. (Prof. John Lott)

In 2001, there were 35 skydiving fatalities. (USPA)

In 2000, there were 778 accidental deaths by firearms. (the most recent CDC study)

In 2001, the fatality rate to number of USPA members was 102.9:100,000

In 2000, the accidental fatality rate to number of estimated gun owners was .9:100,000

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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The way I see it, everyone owning a gun has de-facto joined the Militia, and per the 2nd Amendment has agreed to be well regulated. So just go about using this resource - they all go on exercises for one week out of the year where they learn marksmanship, gun safety, etc. and have their weapons inventoried.

According to your interperetation of the Second Amendment, this may be the case. There has been no precedent for this type of interperetation in any court or in any historical document on the Bill of Rights.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[jfields 0]

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I guess the problem that people have is this, the "sensible measures" are never defined. They always end up as a ban.

No. They are often spelled out. The problem is that nearly anything is seen by the fanatics as a slippery slope towards a ban, whether it is or not. Thus, the very people whose interests would be most served by the changes are least likely to accept them. The end result is that they look more and more like a fringe group, gradually alienating themselves from the wide middleground that would be happy with better laws that served the public interest without outright ownership bans.