0
billvon

Holy war

Recommended Posts

Quote

***Remember that OECD barely scratches the surface in terms of aid the US provides to other countries outside of UN programs (e.g. Egypt, Israel, Iraq, Pakistan, Mexico, Russia).
***

No, wrong again. 1) OECD is an association of industrialised countries. When comparing “apples with apples” their membership is normally used as classifying the “developed world”. OECD has nothing to do with the aid numbers.
2) The numbers I mentioned are total “aid” given to foreign countries both through multilateral organisations like the UN and through bilateral aid given directly to one country from another. All aid was included in these numbers.



No, it wasn't. As an example: the US provides over $2B/year to Egypt, through it's own initiative and diplomatic apparatus, not through any organizations.

US aid to Israel is greater than the %/total dollars you previously cited. And obviously, the $87B we're about to drop in Iraq is out of reach to just about everyone except the G7.

The US budget is bigger than the GDP of every other country on earth (no bragging, just providing scale).
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Nope. I went to a public school. Mind your p's and q's if you are going to talk shit



The one talking shit is you. Still nothing to add to the subject as such? Anything intelligent to say?



Look, bright one. I was simply making reference to your so-called higher education quotes and percentages. Please quote me on where I was bragging/talking shit. :o You don't want to make jihad with me, pal. Add that to your list of facts.

Out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Gawain, I would second your nomination if anohld is totally recalled!!!!...

You are the raider of the lost cause.



You think I could gather the 65 signatures and $3500 to get on the ballot? :P
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Gawain for Prez....sky is the limit!



I sense a grass-roots campaign in the works here.B| BillV would have a heart attack. Let's be gentle, he just got married. :P
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Out of that, the US provides 35% of that total, France 16%; Germany 24%; Japan 25%. Numbers can be twisted a lot of different ways.



This does not make sense you take 4 countries and then apply some percentages?

Lets take the facts. I have found the data and it is attached in the spreadsheet. You can see the US is the country that gives least in % of GDP of 22 OECD countries listed (there are 30 in total don’t know the numbers for the rest). Of the total $ amount of these 22's contribution the US contributes about 1/5. Japan with less then half the population contributed until recently far more in $ terms then the US.
The EU countries listed combined paid 2.5 times more in $ terms and all far more in % of GDP.

Quote

You also have to remember that social programs are the order of the day in nearly every EU country, versus the US which, in addition to massive aid programs has a private non-profit sector that dwarfs similar programs in other countries.



I am not sure if private programs like NGO's etc are included in the numbers. However, the non-government aid organisations are also very strong in e.g. Europe and I seriously doubt your statement that these NGO's in the US "dwarf” the ones in e.g. Europe. Got any facts for a change?

Quote

Just out of curiosity, how much % or total dollars does Australia provide



Australia's numbers are included in the attached. In term of % of GDP it is 2.5 times the US aid. Much less in $ of course.
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

No, it wasn't. As an example: the US provides over $2B/year to Egypt, through it's own initiative and diplomatic apparatus, not through any organizations.



This is what is called bilateral aid.... and it is included if it is aid for development. If it is money for weapons etc. it is not classified as “aid”.
The $87B for Iraq is to pay for the occupation after the war. That is not classified as development aid. You can find some sites on the OECD and UN web sites that define which is which. But I assume that the numbers do not include weapons and cost of occupation by foreign troops as development aid....
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Look, bright one. I was simply making reference to your so-called higher education quotes and percentages. Please quote me on where I was bragging/talking shit. You don't want to make jihad with me, pal. Add that to your list of facts.



Show me "so-called education quotes" - I responded with some facts about Australian Universities when one of your friends here made derogatory remarks about the education system in Australia. I have not talked about my education here at all. I have talked about that this little club of red necks is constantly claiming "facts" that do not really resemble reality and I made the point - and maintain so - that you guys should try to get your facts right before posting your bigot and uninformed tirades in the forum. For that I have been called an academic snob or something. You have no idea about my background or education. Education does not have anything to do with knowing or researching your facts.

So far I have seen several posts from you but not one where you made a contribution.

Anyway, I am finished playing with the red neck club for today. Whilst some of the posts disgust me because of their bigot and sometimes racist content, it at least shows that you guys have no facts "to stand on" just your opinions and your mutual back slapping.
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

This does not make sense you take 4 countries and then apply some percentages?



I was simply working off your example.

Otherwise, a lot of work. Good job.

I don't understand the argument here. Out of 22, the US provides 1/5 monetary resources. It grew out of a program designed by the US and Canada, it's HQd in France...what else are we supposed to do?

You're trying to assign moral priority based on a percentage of a GDP.

The OECD doesn't provide any material "aid" so I'm still at a loss. What does population have to do with it?
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just to clarify before I am signing off:

Quote

I don't understand the argument here. Out of 22, the US provides 1/5 monetary resources. It grew out of a program designed by the US and Canada, it's HQd in France...what else are we supposed to do?



Foreign aid has NOTHING to do with the OECD. The OECD collects economic data and that is where I got the data from. The data is the aid given multi- and bilateral from each country. Go and visit their web site to understand what they do. Don't mix it up with the aid itself - they just collect the stats in this case.


Quote

You're trying to assign moral priority based on a percentage of a GDP.



That is correct. Like in any budget the % of your total budget/wealth you spend on something shows the priority you give it.
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Foreign aid has NOTHING to do with the OECD. The OECD collects economic data and that is where I got the data from. The data is the aid given multi- and bilateral from each country. Go and visit their web site to understand what they do. Don't mix it up with the aid itself - they just collect the stats in this case.



These stats are based on Official Development Aid and Official Aid that are provided as initiatives of specific committees of OECD.

Quote

Quote

You're trying to assign moral priority based on a percentage of a GDP.



That is correct. Like in any budget the % of your total budget/wealth you spend on something shows the priority you give it.



That may be true if you and I each had the same net-worth. Let's say you and I each have an aid budget $100,000, if we gave the same 10% in the name of economic development (providing that the dollar amounts were deemed the necessary amount to work with), your point is well taken. But if I have $1,000,000 and you have 100,000 in the budget and we still agree that 10,000 each is what is needed in ODA, then my % of GDP is irrelevant. My aid budget will cover a broader area outside of ODA or OA. Here's a good summary, taken from OECD's data: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp This link provides a summary on private funding too. Here are the highlights:
--International giving by U.S. foundations totals $1.5 billion per year
--Charitable giving by U.S. businesses now comes to at least $2.8 billion annually
--American NGOs gave over $6.6 billion in grants, goods and volunteers.
--Religious overseas ministries contribute $3.4 billion, including health care, literacy training, relief and development.
--$1.3 billion by U.S. colleges are given in scholarships to foreign students
--Personal remittances from the U.S. to developing countries came to $18 billion in 2000
Source: Dr. Carol Aderman, Aid and Comfort, Tech Central Station, 21 August 2002. (Aderman admits that there are no complete figures for international private giving. Hence these numbers may be taken in caution, but even with caution, these are high numbers.)

I can't confirm it yet, but I believe the activities of USAID are not party to OECD initiatives. If that's so, theres another $16-20B that they don't see.

George Bush also just signed a massive $15B AIDS relief package focused solely at Africa. OECD probably won't track that.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Hmmm - belief in entitlement - you must really be a liberal.



Now you're calling me names?:D:D
I don't think that expecting to be rewarded for hard work makes me a liberal. I thought that it made me a capitalist.



A capitalist is one who expects to be rewarded for investing capital. Hard work has nothing to do with it. The capital may be inherited, like GWB's or Ted Kennedy's.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The hatred that everyone conveniently blames on the US has roots that run longer than the 1980s and still, no one can pin it to any specific chain of events.



How about the CIA in Iran, 1953? Seems like a good enough reason.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote



That may be true if you and I each had the same net-worth. Let's say you and I each have an aid budget $100,000, if we gave the same 10% in the name of economic development (providing that the dollar amounts were deemed the necessary amount to work with), your point is well taken.




If you want to reduce it to individuals, then divide the aid$ by the population. Each American gives less than each Frenchman, German or each Norwegian. Make you feel more righteous?

Your argument is as stupid as saying Delaware isn't paying its share for national defense because it sends fewer tax dollars to Washington than does California.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Foreign aid has NOTHING to do with the OECD. The OECD collects economic data and that is where I got the data from. The data is the aid given multi- and bilateral from each country. Go and visit their web site to understand what they do. Don't mix it up with the aid itself - they just collect the stats in this case.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


These stats are based on Official Development Aid and Official Aid that are provided as initiatives of specific committees of OECD.



Yes I need to correct/clarify. The OECD does get involved in development activities. The data I provided is however not just aid through the OECD, it covers all "official" (government financed) development aid through a number of channels. There are definitions available regarding what that covers.

The moneys you mention in your post are to a great part private funds (e.g. migrants sending money to relatives overseas), NGO's activities which I can not compare as I do not have comparable data from non-US NGO (and many are international anyway), as well as churches (how does that compare to the Vatican?) etc. All very good, but a lot is not development aid as such and it is difficult to compare to activities in other countries (don't have the stats).

What you can compare is the official aid given by the government through the recognized channels and this data I provided. And according to this data the US is far behind all other developed countries as a % of GDP or for that matter per capita.

Now, I did not present the data in order to slam the US, I just wanted to deflate the argument that the "US is paying for everybody else in the World" - it is just not true...

On the other hand there is a lot of development aid money that gets wasted by organizations and countries. So I am quite critical of some of these activities myself but that is different discussion.
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote



They are the aggressors. We are the defenders. That puts us on higher moral ground.



Wrong, dude. Remember the crusades? That was us being the aggressors.

t



The US was responsible for the Crusades......
:S

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yep, next time around the US will also be guilty of Christ crucifixion too;):P

And Mickey, if you want to correct, why don't you request the greenie and delete all your posts? seems to me that you are implying your superior intelect is not letting us understand your wise explanations:P
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

And the far right thinks free speech extends to exposing undercover US agents,



I think her husband did that more than anyone!



I think that Bill Clinton has the lying to congress thing covered.



You must be too young to remember Watergate and Iran-Contra.


You must be too liberal to look at the entire picture and realize that Watergate was an attempt to not let the left steal another election after the 1960 fiasco.
You also don't want people to know that Iran-Contra was just an attempt to help out Nicaraguans fight communism because we as Americans have always stood strong against it. Unfortunately the Democrat party (left) has always been loaded with communist infiltrators who stood in the way of helping the Nicaraguans.
If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0