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billvon 2,991
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>Also, a jihad is a MUSLIM holy war
Not exclusively, according to the dictionary. But if you do not have access to one, I'll call it a "crusade" from here on out to avoid a "it depends on what the word 'is' means" sort of argument.
> The US as a nation state is incapable of engaging in jihad by its own constitution.
I agree; saying that we are in something of a crusade was a bit foolish. He apologized for that, and as far as I'm concerned, end of story.
>Are you actually taking the position that the US was NOT founded upon
> Judeo-Christian principles?
It was founded by people who were christians, and they wrote the founding articles of that country given that background. They were also wise enough to avoid putting any mandatory observance of those principles into those documents - indeed, they specifically proscribe it.
Not exclusively, according to the dictionary. But if you do not have access to one, I'll call it a "crusade" from here on out to avoid a "it depends on what the word 'is' means" sort of argument.
> The US as a nation state is incapable of engaging in jihad by its own constitution.
I agree; saying that we are in something of a crusade was a bit foolish. He apologized for that, and as far as I'm concerned, end of story.
>Are you actually taking the position that the US was NOT founded upon
> Judeo-Christian principles?
It was founded by people who were christians, and they wrote the founding articles of that country given that background. They were also wise enough to avoid putting any mandatory observance of those principles into those documents - indeed, they specifically proscribe it.
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteOur war in Iraq has not diminished our activity in Afghanistan
Actually, Canadian troops among others have relieved US troops in Afghanistan so they could be redirected to Iraq. I am sure you don't really get to hear that in the US media, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
TheAnvil 0
If you choose to ignore 'Judeo-Christian principles' that's your prerogative.
Military Chaplains of many denominations wear uniforms. Should they be censured?
Military Chaplains of many denominations wear uniforms. Should they be censured?
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
TheAnvil 0
Quote>Also, a jihad is a MUSLIM holy war
Not exclusively, according to the dictionary. But if you do not have access to one, I'll call it a "crusade" from here on out to avoid a "it depends on what the word 'is' means" sort of argument.
I refer you to your previous post.
Quote
> The US as a nation state is incapable of engaging in jihad by its own constitution.
I agree; saying that we are in something of a crusade was a bit foolish. He apologized for that, and as far as I'm concerned, end of story.
I still don't think any apology was necessary. It was his prerogative to do so.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteI still don't think any apology was necessary. It was his prerogative to do so.
Off course not. Why would he? His commander in chief hears God at night in his head.
To me, what he said, when he said it, was a stupid thing to do, specially in uniform. I don't see how this has anything to do with freedom of speech. I really call that a bullshit argument.
I wonder how many generals would survive standing on a podium in full dress uniform explaining to people how he thinks Bush is a complete moron.
Free speech my ass.
Zenister 0
QuoteIf you choose to ignore 'Judeo-Christian principles' that's your prerogative.
Military Chaplains of many denominations wear uniforms. Should they be censured?
there is nothing to ignore or not as the whole idea is a myth. I dont put much stock in myths, particularly ones with obvious political agendas
A chaplain that encourages Jihad should certainly be relieved no matter what their denomination....
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
TheAnvil 0
If memory serves several generals who spoke harshly about El Jefe Clintonista in public were censured / relieved. I would hope the same thing would be done should any choose to do so about President Bush.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
TheAnvil 0
A myth? Hmmm......I think not. But if it makes you feel better, go right ahead.
Yes, any military chaplain encouraging a jihad should be relieved. That's not what the good General was doing - he's a Christian. Jihad is a Muslim holy war.
Yes, any military chaplain encouraging a jihad should be relieved. That's not what the good General was doing - he's a Christian. Jihad is a Muslim holy war.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
wmw999 2,447
QuoteYes, any military chaplain encouraging a jihad should be relieved. That's not what the good General was doing - he's a Christian. Jihad is a Muslim holy war.
What is your thinking about a general who views this as a holy war, and is willing to say so in public, in uniform?
It scares me; the whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thinking makes it easier to say that any muslim is your enemy, if it's a holy war you're engaged in. Even if the muslim is not against you, he's just also not as vocally against people he knows, or possibly grew up with or is related to.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteIf memory serves several generals who spoke harshly about El Jefe Clintonista in public were censured / relieved. I would hope the same thing would be done should any choose to do so about President Bush.
Right, so we have settled the whole free speech bullshit argument.
kiltboy 0
I think that was due to criticising the commander in chief. I think public criticism of your superior officer would at least land you on their shitty job list (did when I was in). Criticising the chain of command is a little different to voicing a personal opinion on another given subject.
I think what the general said was inappropriate given the position that he has. It was a propaganda gift and I would have thought that the general on question would have shown better judgement.
David
I think what the general said was inappropriate given the position that he has. It was a propaganda gift and I would have thought that the general on question would have shown better judgement.
David
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteI think that was due to criticising the commander in chief. I think public criticism of your superior officer would at least land you on their shitty job list (did when I was in).
I agree, which once again shows that free speech does not apply here. When in uniform a person is not free to state his or her opinions without it potentially having some very serious ramifications.
Zenister 0
QuoteA myth? Hmmm......I think not. But if it makes you feel better, go right ahead.
its not a matter of feeling better, there is no such thing as 'Judeo-Christian' tradition. They are seperate religions..might as well make up a term like 'Christo-Muslim' traditions on the exact same basis. Its a myth created by christians to lend credibility to their religion by assuming connections and traditions of an older religion that are not actual.
but of course the belief that they are the same with the same rules, traditions and morals is what lets lots of the faithful sleep at night, so if it makes you feel better to think its real......
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
TheAnvil 0
I almost totally agree. I think that anyone in uniform is free to express their views. However, they are not free to do so about senior government officials, DoD policy, American foreign policy, and such things.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
TheAnvil 0
I can deal with that, as long as he is not calling for a holy war against Islam, but against Islamic extremists. I think the in uniform thing was on the edge, but not over. He's a big boy - his prerogative. I still hold that no apology was necessary.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Actually, I've stayed out of this thread for a few days, but I gotta reiterate that he had no business speaking privately to a group of private citizens in uniform. It is against the Army regulations to do so.
Why is it against the regulations? To avoid this type fo flap. If he wants to say something to this group, put on his civvies and do it that way...
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Why is it against the regulations? To avoid this type fo flap. If he wants to say something to this group, put on his civvies and do it that way...
My wife is hotter than your wife.
TheAnvil 0
Ahhhh Zenister you make me chuckle to myself. One could make an adjective out of Christo-Muslim that would indeed have meaning. I'd use such a word to describe life in Jerusalem under the Muslims prior to the formation of Outremer.
Your assertion that Christians invented the term to add credibility to their religion by assuming connections and traditions of an older religion are laughable. The connections between the two are many. The Pentateuch is contained in the canon of both religions. Their moral codes are quite similar in many respects. The man revered as the Son of God was BORN a Jew. Fairly hard to ignore.
Again - ignore the facts if it makes you feel better.
Your assertion that Christians invented the term to add credibility to their religion by assuming connections and traditions of an older religion are laughable. The connections between the two are many. The Pentateuch is contained in the canon of both religions. Their moral codes are quite similar in many respects. The man revered as the Son of God was BORN a Jew. Fairly hard to ignore.
Again - ignore the facts if it makes you feel better.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
TheAnvil 0
I disagree. Though not familiar with the Army regs per se, I am familiar with DoD -especially the Navy. Anyone can talk to anyone in uniform, they just have to be careful as to the topic.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Zenister 0
there are far more differences in doctrine, dogma and morals than there are similarities, anyone that thinks otherwise hasn’t studied either religion very well..
i understand your misperception, much of stems from the usage of Jewish as both religion and race..
adoption of one religions basic texts does not mean you have a common tradition....
Rastafari beliefs include quite a bit of Catholic dogma, but it would be equally meaningless to talk about Rasta-Catholic traditions....
its a myth, a fiction created to provide a continuity that never existed, and never will, when you take the time to look at the fundamentals of each religion. If you only compare similarities you might as well talk of Judeo-Christian-Islamic-Buddhist-Tao-Shinto traditions because you are then examining basic structures common to nearly every religion.
Which still does not mean there is a continuous 'tradition', no matter how many followers of either religon wish to pretend otherwise..
and basic differences in translation & interpretation led to immediate & signigicant differences in dogma and belief. Perhaps you should spend some time researching the each religions qualifications for salvation and 'afterlife'. Very different, rather important core beliefs and yet you claim a common tradition? please....
i understand your misperception, much of stems from the usage of Jewish as both religion and race..
adoption of one religions basic texts does not mean you have a common tradition....
Rastafari beliefs include quite a bit of Catholic dogma, but it would be equally meaningless to talk about Rasta-Catholic traditions....
its a myth, a fiction created to provide a continuity that never existed, and never will, when you take the time to look at the fundamentals of each religion. If you only compare similarities you might as well talk of Judeo-Christian-Islamic-Buddhist-Tao-Shinto traditions because you are then examining basic structures common to nearly every religion.
Which still does not mean there is a continuous 'tradition', no matter how many followers of either religon wish to pretend otherwise..
QuoteThe Pentateuch is contained in the canon of both religions
and basic differences in translation & interpretation led to immediate & signigicant differences in dogma and belief. Perhaps you should spend some time researching the each religions qualifications for salvation and 'afterlife'. Very different, rather important core beliefs and yet you claim a common tradition? please....
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
TheAnvil 0
Quote
there are far more differences in doctrine, dogma and morals than there are similarities, anyone that thinks otherwise hasn’t studied either religion very well..
I've read the Bible, Torah, Talmud, and Koran. Some friends of mine are Jewish. I feel I know both Christianity and Judaism relatively well.
Quote
i understand your misperception, much of stems from the usage of Jewish as both religion and race..
I've never stated Jews are a race and never will.
Quote
adoption of one religions basic texts does not mean you have a common tradition....
Really? READ. Almost all of the original Christians were Jewish converts. Some tenets of the Old Testament - including some found in the Pentateuch - are still espoused by Christian denominations today.
Quote
Rastafari beliefs include quite a bit of Catholic dogma, but it would be equally meaningless to talk about Rasta-Catholic traditions....
Traditions - no. Beliefs with regards to morality - absolutely.
Quote
its a myth, a fiction created to provide a continuity that never existed, and never will, when you take the time to look at the fundamentals of each religion. If you only compare similarities you might as well talk of Judeo-Christian-Islamic-Buddhist-Tao-Shinto traditions because you are then examining basic structures common to nearly every religion.
Structures? What structures are you talking about exactly? And what is this fixation upon the word 'tradition'? The adjective phrase 'Judeo-Christian' has been around for years, referring to the fundamental set of moral beliefs/principles of many of our nation's founders. Why you are so upset at the phrase and try and pollute it with this traditions nonsense is beyond me.
Are there differences between the moral principles espoused by the two religions? Absolutely. Does that mean they have nothing in common? Ridiculous.
Quote
Which still does not mean there is a continuous 'tradition', no matter how many followers of either religon wish to pretend otherwise..
Your tradition fixation rears its head again. How about Passover?
Quote
***The Pentateuch is contained in the canon of both religions
and basic differences in translation & interpretation led to immediate & signigicant differences in dogma and belief. Perhaps you should spend some time researching the each religions qualifications for salvation and 'afterlife'. Very different, rather important core beliefs and yet you claim a common tradition? please...
Differences in interpretation? Absolutely. Differences in practice? Absolutely. Differences in moral beliefs? I don't really see all that many.
This is an odd fixation.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
QuoteRight, so we have settled the whole free speech bullshit argument.
no we have shown the left thinks they are the only one who gets free speech
billvon 2,991
>no we have shown the left thinks they are the only one who gets free
>speech
---------------------------
Federal Challenge to Bush Censorship of Abortion Speech before Appellate Court
March 11, 2002
NEW YORK - On March 13, the Center for Reproductive Rights will petition the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit to permit its case against President George W. Bush’s censorship of abortion-related speech to proceed.
-------------------------
Toronto Globe
Media Fear Censorship as Bush Requests Caution
by Gayle MacDonald
Thursday, October 11, 2001
The request from the White House was polite and guarded, but the message was crystal-clear: U.S. television networks should think long and hard before beaming another prerecorded rant from Osama bin Laden or his al-Qaeda terrorist network to hundreds of millions of viewers around the world.
Many in the news media criticized the extraordinary request from the White House yesterday, saying the Bush administration is getting precariously close to declaring war not only on terrorists, but on a free press.
---------------------------
Writing History to Executive Order
The New York Times
November 16, 2001
With a stroke of the pen on Nov. 1, President Bush stabbed history in the back and blocked Americans’ right to know how presidents (and vice presidents) have made decisions. Executive Order 13223 ended more than 30 years of increasing openness in government.
From now on, scholars, journalists and any other citizens will have to show a demonstrated, specific “need to know” in requesting documents from the Reagan, Clinton and two Bush presidencies—and all others to come. And if someone asks to see records never made public during a presidency but deposited in the National Archives by a former president, the requester will now have to receive the permission of both the former president and the current one.
---------------------------
Apparently the current administration is in cahoots wth all those lefties who want to keep you in the dark.
>speech
---------------------------
Federal Challenge to Bush Censorship of Abortion Speech before Appellate Court
March 11, 2002
NEW YORK - On March 13, the Center for Reproductive Rights will petition the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit to permit its case against President George W. Bush’s censorship of abortion-related speech to proceed.
-------------------------
Toronto Globe
Media Fear Censorship as Bush Requests Caution
by Gayle MacDonald
Thursday, October 11, 2001
The request from the White House was polite and guarded, but the message was crystal-clear: U.S. television networks should think long and hard before beaming another prerecorded rant from Osama bin Laden or his al-Qaeda terrorist network to hundreds of millions of viewers around the world.
Many in the news media criticized the extraordinary request from the White House yesterday, saying the Bush administration is getting precariously close to declaring war not only on terrorists, but on a free press.
---------------------------
Writing History to Executive Order
The New York Times
November 16, 2001
With a stroke of the pen on Nov. 1, President Bush stabbed history in the back and blocked Americans’ right to know how presidents (and vice presidents) have made decisions. Executive Order 13223 ended more than 30 years of increasing openness in government.
From now on, scholars, journalists and any other citizens will have to show a demonstrated, specific “need to know” in requesting documents from the Reagan, Clinton and two Bush presidencies—and all others to come. And if someone asks to see records never made public during a presidency but deposited in the National Archives by a former president, the requester will now have to receive the permission of both the former president and the current one.
---------------------------
Apparently the current administration is in cahoots wth all those lefties who want to keep you in the dark.
Zenister 0
QuoteI've never stated Jews are a race and never will.
Quote
The man revered as the Son of God was BORN a Jew
one is unsure how you could be 'born' Jewish then....its not as if you can be 'born' Christian either....
QuoteYour tradition fixation rears its head again
alright since you'd rather use the word "principles" i'd be interested in what you perceive to be those of the "Judeo-Christian's"
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
I disagree. I remember just seeing a local film clip of the guys from Iraq on leave speaking at a church. I guess we should throw them out too.
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