DougH 270 #26 December 20, 2007 Do you really believe than spinning line twists would result in the activation parameters being met on an expert model AAD?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #27 December 20, 2007 QuoteDo you really believe than spinning line twists would result in the activation parameters being met on an expert model AAD? Do you really believe that it's so unlikely that it's okay to mock the possibility?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #28 December 20, 2007 Quote However, I think that cutting away from line twists was unnecessary. This is just my opinion, and obviously, I did not see the configuration of the canopy [...] Your decision was OK[..] I'm not entirely sure about the exact definition of the "hard deck", but isn't there a "decision altitude" involved? For instance, my FJC taught that I must be under a landable canopy at 2000 feet, or it's choppety-chop-chop. So if i'd lose altitude awereness for whatever reason, and I would subsequently find myself fighting linetwists at 1300, I wouldn't even have to think about fixing it. The second decision altitude is 1000 ft. Not under a landale canopy by then? Just pull the silver without cutting away. (not second guessing or berating anyone, just asking for clarification)"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #29 December 20, 2007 Quote Quote Do you really believe than spinning line twists would result in the activation parameters being met on an expert model AAD? Do you really believe that it's so unlikely that it's okay to mock the possibility? I asked a question, so why don't you anwser it or don't bust my balls about being mocking. And no unless you are under a small highly loaded canopy, or you are using a student model AAD I don't think it will activate. I don't believe that an AAD will activate in most conditions under a partial, that is why there are student model AAD's. And that is why I asked the question. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #30 December 20, 2007 You realize that a high speed malfunction in that scenario would have left you with 5 to 7 seconds to react properly beofre you were too low to get a canopy out and inflated. Even if you did react properly, what if you had line twists on your reserve? It's more common than you might think. Cutting away your main in this instance was the last step in a line of very poor choices. Rethink your priorities when it comes to jumping, and start putting safety first on all skydives. Things go from 'great fun' to 'pointing the ambulance in the direction of the dead guy' in a matter of seconds. It's a fine line, and you should do your best to stay far away form that line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #31 December 20, 2007 IMO... 1. You screwed up at the get-go but you already realize that and have learned from your initial mistake...good on you. 2. I say you did the right thing cutting away and deploying the reserve. I base my opinion on this: -Line twists could develop into spinning line twists while trying to kick out rather more easily than is generally recognized (there is thought on NOT kicking out but simply letting the twists undo themselves, but that's another thread). Spinning line twists suck and at low altitude, even more so. -I trust my reserve. -I would not want to gamble on the stable line twists remaining stable. -I probably would not be able to reliably determine my fall rate and its survivabilty. -I trust my reserve.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #32 December 20, 2007 QuoteI think you made the wrong choice. I think you were high enough to cutaway, as long as everything goes right. However, I think that cutting away from line twists was unnecessary. This is just my opinion, and obviously, I did not see the configuration of the canopy. Most simple line twists (i.e. without turns or spins) will come out on their own with no problems. Most, but not all. I have had a number of jumps with line twists, and all but one came out pretty easily. The one that didn't - even though the canopy was flying straight - finally came out at 1500' (I had pulled at 3K). I was altitude aware and this was my last try before chopping. Incidentally the lines had been so spun up that i was disoriented for a good few seconds after they untwisted (which they did fast, when they finally did). Before this jump, I would probably have agreed with untwisting rather than chopping - now, I know how much altitide you can burn up trying to fix twists even on a canopy flying straight.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #33 December 20, 2007 QuoteDo you really believe than spinning line twists would result in the activation parameters being met on an expert model AAD? I'd say quite likely get an expert cypress fired. Imagine a not 100% spread out canopy diving down in a downplane or cork-screw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #34 December 21, 2007 For those of you that think line twists are a trivial matter. Have you had many? I've had a lot of line twists, because I developed a bad habit packing somewhere and had to figure out what I was doing wrong, which took several months. I jump every weekend and the line twists just seemed to get worse. I also had several when I was a student. I've gotten myself out of all of these and one resulted in my first "off" landing just past the runway. When you have line twists like I had a few times, you're lucky to get out of them. They don't always undo themselves unless you only get maybe one or two twists in the lines. Most of the twists I've had did not come undone alone. I've never had a line twist that resulted in a bad spin or anything like that... yet. I won't even say it's not ever going to happen. At the altitude he was at when he looked up and saw the line twists, you're only choice is to make a lightning speed decision to either take the chance of kicking the twists out or cutting away and firing the reserve. That is one of those moments where you had better not have a split second hesitation and make a decision right now without thinking about it. He came out of it alive and he is smarter now. He may not have done the right thing getting himself into that situation, but he did the right thing making a quick enough decision to live through it. He lived, so it was a good decision.Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #35 December 21, 2007 Bill, there have been a lot of people in that exact same situation with Mad John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #36 December 21, 2007 Quote Trust me, solo CReW from an AAD fire or cuz you're too low to chop is not fun. OK, you GOTTA share now! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MajorDad 0 #37 December 21, 2007 Quote Bill, there have been a lot of people in that exact same situation with Mad John What happened to "Make new mistakes... not the Same Mistakes"? Then again 7 points from 5 Grand are quite rare........ Major Dad CSPA D-579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #38 December 21, 2007 >Then again 7 points from 5 Grand are quite rare........ Yeah, we got 7 from 4000. Still ended poorly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #39 December 21, 2007 Quote Quote Trust me, solo CReW from an AAD fire or cuz you're too low to chop is not fun. OK, you GOTTA share now! Already did http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3014076#3014076Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #40 December 22, 2007 Your'e still with us...you did the right thing after doing the wrong thing. You learned your lesson. Launching a 4-way from that altitude is probably ok...turning points? Not judging...been there done that.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdobleman 0 #41 December 26, 2007 OK, Jeff. I'm finally moved to hop in here at the jeopardy of mellowing my reputation. There have not been "a lot of people" in that situation with me. One thing I have not seen mentioned at all here is the concept of canopy transfer. It's not covered in first jump courses, for good reason - students have enough knowledge to sort through in their decision making process in emergencies. But for a low-speed mal at a low altititude it could be the best alternative, at least it should be discussed. and Phil, maybe we'll finally perform the whole song again some year. madjohn Main goals in life: Be on the "Jumpers Over Eighty" (JOE) World Record and attend the Lost Prairie Boogie once after I'm gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #42 December 26, 2007 Quote One thing I have not seen mentioned at all here is the concept of canopy transfer. It's not covered in first jump courses, for good reason - students have enough knowledge to sort through in their decision making process in emergencies. But for a low-speed mal at a low altititude it could be the best alternative, at least it should be discussed. Meaning pull the reserve first and then cut away if possible? And isn't the established standard for when under 1000' (which this jumper wasn't) to pull the reserve and just hang on to as much fabric as possible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #43 December 26, 2007 QuoteI don't believe that an AAD will activate in most conditions under a partial, that is why there are student model AAD's... Think about partials and then repost... Bag Lock Catastrophic damage Streamer etc...My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #44 December 26, 2007 Quote Quote I don't believe that an AAD will activate in most conditions under a partial, that is why there are student model AAD's... Think about partials and then repost... Bag Lock Catastrophic damage Streamer etc... Sorry, I guess if you lacked the concept of context what was saying could be unclear. My post and question was in response to Laura's comment that an AAD also added extra element that needed to be considered with his linetwist situation. Quote Do you really believe than spinning line twists would result in the activation parameters being met on an expert model AAD? I will re phrase it: I don't believe that many canopy malfunctions will result in a AAD fire: spinning linetwists, a lineover that has the canopy diving, blown out cells or lines, etc."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #45 December 26, 2007 QuoteI will re phrase it: I don't believe that many canopy malfunctions will result in a AAD fire: spinning linetwists, a lineover that has the canopy diving, blown out cells or lines, etc. Have you ever experienced diving line twists? If so, were you able to determine what your descent rate was? I don't believe that it takes a highly loaded HP canopy to reach expert cypres activation speeds. My opinion comes from having cutaway from diving twists twice on relatively docile canopies (Sabre2) at relatively light wing loadings (1.2 and 1.3) In both cases, the spin gained speed much faster than it does when simply holding a toggle at full extension. The first time it happened, my feet hurt like hell from the rush of blood during the spin.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #46 December 26, 2007 Yes I have had a few diving line twists, but I was able to sort them out long before I was in cypres territory. I didn't think that my decent rate would set off my own cypres, but I don't have an overly high loading on my eleptical."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #47 December 27, 2007 I always seem to miss the fun! Leave it to me to be sick that weekend. Mikhail, don't over think it. While you were in the air you thought it out rather quickly and dealt with it. Don't pull low, unless you are. Seems like your next step was appropriate. Quite honestly, if I found myself just over a grand with linetwists I was even remotely unsure of, I'd have cutaway as well. Just know your alti. Message to Jsax... were you one of those low people on an MJ load sometime back? Who's fault, his or yours? I say it was yours so put the letter F and the letter O together wherever you see fit . My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites