BETO74 0 #26 October 7, 2003 Is this the dead of common sense? another sign uhhhttp://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #27 October 7, 2003 to bad...the more people you have participating in any activity, the more injuries and fatalities you will have, simple math. If you dont like the results then get into a sport that is more forgiving of those who make mistakes, and encourage those you care about to do the same. If your going to risk YOUR life, do it in any manner YOU chose...and accept the consequences of failure, both in yourself and in those you care about who also take the same risks.. if anyone doesnt know what death is by the time they are 14 then their parents didnt let them out enough and perhaps they should take up the issue with them? instead of blaming someone else for their lack of education and basic observational skills..physics doesnt change as your jump numbers increase...anyone who cant see and understand the results of high speed impact with an imovable object probably shouldnt be driving either....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #28 October 7, 2003 I find it disturbing that the people that are needing the most help in determining the best gear are the ones that are often getting the worst advice. I recently had a friend graduate from student status. They turned to people that were friendly towards them but might not have had the best opinions on gear. I heard people reccommending the student everything from canopies at a .9 loading to a 1.25 loading at 18 jumps. The other group that seems to totally ignore the good advice that is given to them is the 100-300 jump crowd. They have'nt been around enough to see friends bounce or get behind their canopy and get hurt. These people tend to jump at smaller DZ's where canopy traffic really is'nt a concern and where their version of a landing pattern is anything that they want to fly since no one is in their way. I'm happy that it sounded like the person at my DZ was going to go with gear that was closer to .9 then the 1.x:1. It makes me really mad to hear from low time jumpers that they are reccommending gear at a low wing loading to others, but they have a wingloading thats higher then that for themself because they are "better then average". Granted... I've sat on the manifest porch at WFFC and saw just how bad some peoples canopy skills really are and just how few people really can fly their canopy. But if a jumper at 50 jumps is "above average" that tells me that everyone else needs to work on their canopy skills and get better. The only thing that gets me more mad then that is hearing new jumpers that don't take advice given directly to them and listen in on others conversations and think that the advice that is given to others applies to them too. I would personally love to have a sign off requirement on new gear purchases. Make jumpers get someone with a instructor or higher rating sign off on their decision of new gear. Not to hold the instructor responcible, but to make sure they have understood their decisions better. As the canopy choice gets smaller/more agressive getting a second sign off almost sounds like a good idea too. Above a certian loading requires STA and and instructor rating... Make sure that people are'nt just finding someone to agree with their opinion. That or at least making the effort to hunt down people to find their USPA number if they want to forge the card... I personally think that its STUPID if jumpers are needing oversight like this but I'm DAMN TIRED of losing jumpers before I get to meet and jump with them Canopy Nazi #2 PhreeZone (who is not above screwing up himself)Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #29 October 7, 2003 Well I only have 84 jumps as of today, so my opion might not count as anything, but how could they possiablly regulate this fairly. Everyone is different and has different skills. I know what I can handle and what I can not. I do listen to advice from those that actually take the time to jump with me and watch me land. If you have never seen me jump or land, how can you possiably know what canopy I should be under. You have no clue what my skills are. However at the same time I do know that some people just do not listen and do not care what others think. It is really up to yourself to keep yourself from getting hurt or worse. I hate to say this, but only you are in control of your life. Forgive me, I am not trying to offend anyone or piss people off, but just think about it, when you have a malfunction, let's say your brake line breaks, some will chop some will rear riser it. Only you know what is right at that time right? Now who is to really say that the deaths of those under perfectly good canopies are really because they shouldn't have been that small or whatever. They chose to turn that low for whatever reason. Only they know what really happend and what was going through their heads. And yes it is sad and I am trully sorry for everyone's loss. You can speculate all you want, but really you can not change what they chose to do. I know it sounds harsh, but it is true. You can not possiablly know why. The only time you can know why is if the gear is messed up and even still why didn't they chop...probably cause they thought they could land it. or they just didn't have the reaction time they should have or whatever. All you know is what you would have done. Now think about a time when you were hurt for whatever reason, you sat down and thought about what happend and what you should have done and what you are going to do about it. You learned from your mistake. They just don't get that chance to learn from their mistake. We can try and learn from their mistakes but only to the point of what we feel comferitable doing ourselves. Like I know that if I had a brake line break I would chop it right now, because I know that I can land my reserve safer than my main, as long as I have no malfunction on my reserve. I do however practice flareing up high with my rear risers and maybe someday I will feel comferitable in doing so. I know I am talking too much, the point is only you know what you can handle and what you think about on your dives and landings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #30 October 7, 2003 QuoteQuote It's up to those of us who've seen what can happen, who've attended funerals and hugged crying mothers, who've watched the life flight helicopter fly away with our friends hoping against hope that they survive... it's up to us to let novice jumpers know that they don't know jack shit yet, and it's up to us to limit the caliber of weapon they can fly, at least until they've got some more jumps and education under their belts. You can talk cold and hard all day long about the logic of buying a canopy, how the jumper is responsible, etc.....until you have witnessed what Lisa said above, you may not fully grasp the reality that Sport Death is, and the emotional pain that it can bring into your life. I know I took more chances than I probably should have when I first started, and people at my DZ were successfull at stopping me somewhat....and Lisa here also told me "NO!" when I came to her to purchase my first Stiletto. She earned my respect that day and caused me to question my purchase even more - to do more research, to talk to more JMs. It is possible she saved me from hurting myself. Then I watched my friends die (In fact, yesterday was the 2-year mark from when we lost Steve and Deb after a canopy collision, and this weekend will be the 2-year mark from when we lost Bruce). Then I had to bury them and go to their funerals. Then I had to do it again, and again. I've done it too many times and realize that I will one day most likely have to do it again. However, as I told Lisa via IM earlier, I'm still not sure a BSR is the best way to go - BendyWendy did a good job above of expressing the same thoughts that I have. BUT, after talking things over with Lisa and HeatherB today, I'm starting to think that a Blacklist is exactly what this sport needs. We NEED to change some perceptions in this sport. As skydivers, we tend to enjoy breaking the rules - it's part of the personality associated with us. Creating a new rule to break will increase the usage of downsizing too soon. Some of the biggest perceptions in this sport are "you aren't cool unless you can swoop, go fast, hook, wear a camera, freefly off of graduation, jump someting small, etc." Somehow people believe that you are a better skydiver if you jump the small stuff, the highend stuff and rush to get under a cross-braced canopy. This goes for A LOT of people on this forum. It's up to the community to make the change. Lisa does her part on the gear side. She refuses sales and keeps people safe. Not everyone in the industry does that, but more should take her lead. I'm part of a group called Team Funnel - our focus is on having fun while focusing on safety. As a group we are tired of losing friends, and we are doing our best to make sure that doesn't happen, WITHOUT holding everyone's hands. How do we do that? We jump with the new grads free of charge and coach them, we recommend they stay away from bigger ways, etc.....instill the common sense that a newbie doesn't have yet. On those marginal wind days, we stay on the ground even thou we know we could jump and point out to the newbies that we have years and jumps on them, maybe they should pull themself from the load. In other words, the experienced jumpers are leading by example, changing the perceptions..... The people that don't care, that want to move/sell their gear no matter what...need to be held accountable and Blacklisted. Change the perception that it's not ok to do that.... Lead by example like Lisa does, like Team Funnel does. The sport will sort itself out and become safer in the long run. The dumb perceptions will change, and safe will become cool._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mfrese 0 #31 October 7, 2003 I appreciate all the input from everyone, even the ones that personally bothered me. Let me append a little bit more to this thread, then I'll make like skybytch and get out of here before I start turning into "man angry" - In this instance, this guys home DZO DID refuse to let him jump it. - He asked the advice of several experienced jumpers and instructors who all told him to take his time and stay conservative. - He asked the advice of another, VERY experienced instructor, who gave him perhaps the best advice I heard: buy whatever parachute you want, then put it under your arm and take it to Perris or Deland, and sign up for a canopy control course where you can learn to fly the fucking thing properly. - He then ended up taking the canopy to a different DZ where they are a little more lax about checking things like logbooks and experience levels. I don't have enough information yet to know exactly what happened, but I know the model and size of canopy involved, and it was definitely a factor in what happened. Where do we stand when this is all over? No closer to an answer. I think this guy made a bad choice, and we could sort of see it coming, because this guy was just BURNING to get better in this sport. You could practically feel his aura light up when he got to the DZ, and it kinda rubbed off on everyone. I only had two short conversations with him, and you could just see the way he was hooked, and how he was just ACHING to get more experience and get better. So it was almost inevitable that he was going to keep trying to downsize. The dealer? Not the first time this has happened, and probably won't be the last. Runs his own operation, not a USPA member, probably feels bad (I hope). We're no closer to an answer, and it ain't gonna bring our friend back anyway. As for what we do with this whole problem...I still don't know the answer, but I can guess what will happen if this keeps up: we're not going to be regulated, we're going to outlawed. I've been thinking seriously about starting to BASE, and it may soon be the only option we have if this shit keeps up. Can't happen? As soon as cars started reaching the point where they were too fast, dangerous, and numerous to be safe, we started making laws to regulate them. How would you like to have skydiving regulated on a state-by-state basis? How'd you like to have to travel 400 miles to jump because your state doesn't allow it? OK, I'm done, sorry to waste the bandwidth, hope it doesn't happen to you. Fly safe, fly free. IcemanDoctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #32 October 7, 2003 Drunk driving is illegal in all 50 states of the USA, but drunk drivers kill some 19,000 people each year in the US. I believe Europe is equally unsuccessful at eliminating drunk driving by regulation. Just how successful is the "War on Drugs"? Some things just can't be enforced by regulation.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #33 October 7, 2003 Just recently an individual purchased "new to them" gear. This gear contained a smaller canopy than this person was ready for. I can say this because I saw the landings under the prior canopy which resulted in several hard landings and an injury. The management at SDA took it upon themselves to ground this individual from flying this smaller canopy until such time this person gained more experience. This person has requestd permission to come back to this DZ to jump this smaller canopy stating that they had put 20+ jumps on the new canopy. The management has agreed with a condition. This person must get private coaching from one of the canopy flight instructors. If the canopy flight instructor clears this person, then they will be welcome to jump here once again. At the end of the day we are all responsible for our own safety. I do agree that something must be done. We all need to take a pro-active stance and encourage people to slow down and take baby steps up. This is not a race, this sport will and does kill. I am tired of friends dying under perfectly good parachutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #34 October 7, 2003 Quote At the end of the day we are all responsible for our own safety. I do agree that something must be done. We all need to take a pro-active stance and encourage people to slow down and take baby steps up. This is not a race, this sport will and does kill. I am tired of friends dying under perfectly good parachutes. Six friends and acquaintances of mine have died under perfectly good parachutes. None of them would have been affected by any of the proposals I've seen: four of them had over 1000 jumps, and the two with <1000 jumps were flying lightly loaded canopies, below the proposed limits. I really wonder if these proposals are aimed at the right audience.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lizzieb 0 #35 October 7, 2003 Quote Six friends and acquaintances of mine have died under perfectly good parachutes. None of them would have been affected by any of the proposals I've seen: four of them had over 1000 jumps, and the two with <1000 jumps were flying lightly loaded canopies, below the proposed limits. I really wonder if these proposals are aimed at the right audience. The proposed regulations will certainly not prevent every fatality. However, there are a large number of them that may have been prevented with such regulation. It might only be a partial solution, but when dealing with life vs. death, it seems to me a partial solution is better than no solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #36 October 7, 2003 QuoteSix friends and acquaintances of mine have died under perfectly good parachutes. None of them would have been affected by any of the proposals I've seen: four of them had over 1000 jumps, and the two with <1000 jumps were flying lightly loaded canopies, below the proposed limits. I have not advocated one way or the other as far as the proposed WL BSRs. I am saying however, that we as a community can educate our less experienced jumpers. and encourage them to take their time when downsizing their canopy. I understand about your six friends Kallend. I've lost an additonal 3 within the last year. I do not know what the answer is, but I am going to keep listening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #37 October 7, 2003 I think that the fatalities are one thing.. but injuries are much more common and more details need put out on those. There is a general lack of incident reports being filed with the USPA about the non fatal injuries. Accourding to this site alone there are dozens more injuries happening every weekend then what the USPA knows about. I'd file reports if I was allowed to but since I'm not an STA I can't.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #38 October 7, 2003 Quote It might only be a partial solution, but when dealing with life vs. death, it seems to me a partial solution is better than no solution. not when such 'partial solution' regulation affects the pursuit of happiness and enjoyment of those who do not fall into such obvious traps...learn or die but keep it the f#^k off my wave until the number of significant injuries and deaths exceeds the number of people who were/are aware enough of the risks to not make them stupidly.. as i've said before maybe big bold letters on the waiver will help stifle all the wammbulance sirens who cant accept that another’s risk level may exceed their own, and that perhaps people ARE willing to take risks and accept consequences you might find unacceptable.. you can always live YOUR life on the couch, just dont expect everyone to want to sit there with you...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #39 October 7, 2003 QuoteI'd file reports if I was allowed to but since I'm not an STA I can't. You can. Any jumper can. They don't even care if the report isn't on the standard reporting form. If you have details on injuries, send them in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #40 October 7, 2003 QuoteI'd file reports if I was allowed to but since I'm not an STA I can't. Yes you can. Want another job? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivexxl 0 #41 October 7, 2003 Quotecan you honestly tell me that when someone goes to buy a chute, they dont inquire as too the handling characteristics? again, people need to think more. Regardless to any and all of that, a friend was lost. No matter the fault or reason, respect is due. We have all done some dumb shit and come out unscathed. Everyone on this site can type whatever they want, and many think they're the "expert". Anyone can check anyone else's experience in the sport by hitting the profile button and seeing jump #'s. 211 jump's, huh? Know all there is to know then? Survive another 500 then talk. And when that time comes, show some respect and dignity... not throw your ignorant bullshit around like you just did. Stop typing for a few, read this, and see if he "had it coming"! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=694858;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC If ignorance is bliss, you must be peeing your pants! Blog Clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #42 October 7, 2003 Quoteif anyone doesnt know what death is by the time they are 14 then their parents didnt let them out enough .... OK, good to see you have life figured out by 14. Your parents were rock stars. I'll give them a silver star for exposing you to the horrors of the world. Now, can we get back to the real issue?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lizzieb 0 #43 October 7, 2003 Quotelearn or die but keep it the f#^k off my wave until the number of significant injuries and deaths exceeds the number of people who were/are aware enough of the risks to not make them stupidly.. wow...that is quite a statement. i don't need 50% of the people in this sport to die before i want to see a change...even one is enough for me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #44 October 7, 2003 QuoteQuoteSix friends and acquaintances of mine have died under perfectly good parachutes. None of them would have been affected by any of the proposals I've seen: four of them had over 1000 jumps, and the two with <1000 jumps were flying lightly loaded canopies, below the proposed limits. I have not advocated one way or the other as far as the proposed WL BSRs. I am saying however, that we as a community can educate our less experienced jumpers. and encourage them to take their time when downsizing their canopy. I understand about your six friends Kallend. I've lost an additonal 3 within the last year. I do not know what the answer is, but I am going to keep listening. I'm with Kallend as far as the WL BSR - this BSR if implememented won't save anyone, wouldn't have saved our friends...... I, like you, will keep my ears open....but don't stop talking either - what you say just may keep someone alive. We don't need a change in the rules. We need a change in the perceptions and this needs to happen on a DZ by DZ basis. And we all know there are DZOs out there that don't care about your jump numbers, WL, canopy size, what your currency is, if you have a license, if you have a logbook, what direction you land etc.....maybe we need a DZ blacklisting as well._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mfrese 0 #45 October 7, 2003 Hey, I'm with you...don't need regulations, just need smarter skydivers, right? Maybe regulation isn't the answer...maybe we just need to make sure we are taking care of our own, and watching out for them when they're making a bad choice. I've had students who were determined to do stupid shit when I told them flat out they weren't experienced enough or qualified to do it, and they didn't...when I was working with them. If they then chose to go the same stupid shit at another dropzone, I can't control that...but at least I can sleep at night 'cause I made the effort. All I'm saying is that EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS SPORT owes it to ourselves and our skydiving brethren to watch out for each other...or someone will do it for us. IcemanDoctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #46 October 7, 2003 QuoteQuotelearn or die but keep it the f#^k off my wave until the number of significant injuries and deaths exceeds the number of people who were/are aware enough of the risks to not make them stupidly.. wow...that is quite a statement. i don't need 50% of the people in this sport to die before i want to see a change...even one is enough for me hmm wasnt the "if it saves a single life its worthwhile" in the death of Common Sense thread?? sorry but until you can decisively show that more people are being hurt than are learning to fly without such graphic lessons regulation is unwarranted and punishes those who can and do learn and seek knowledge for the sake of a handful who could not... QuoteQuoteif anyone doesnt know what death is by the time they are 14 then their parents didnt let them out enough .... OK, good to see you have life figured out by 14. Your parents were rock stars. I'll give them a silver star for exposing you to the horrors of the world. Now, can we get back to the real issue? that is the REAL issue. Far to many people think death and injury is something that doesnt, cant, wont happen to them, well guess what? They are wrong and once they recognize that fact and accept its consequences then they can begin to decide what risks are acceptable for THEM. Instead we get threads like this, and cry to the skies because "life shouldnt be like this..." and "we have to do something to stop these people from hurting themselves..." No. What you have to do is accept that beyond the age of 18 YOU are the only one responsible for deciding what risks YOU take, you can learn, listen and observe everything and do your best to stay alive and enjoy YOUR passions as long as possible or you can continue blissfully along thinking nothing will touch you and yours until the day your illusions are torn away... far to many people have been weened with exactly those illusions as a safety blanket and cant seem to cope very well when people (and people they care about) die in the real world, and so scream, kick their heels and cry about how life should be endlessly regulated to prevent their personal pain... whats that? sounds like the wammmbulance again.....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #47 October 7, 2003 QuoteQuoteif anyone doesnt know what death is by the time they are 14 then their parents didnt let them out enough .... OK, good to see you have life figured out by 14. Your parents were rock stars. I'll give them a silver star for exposing you to the horrors of the world. Now, can we get back to the real issue? that is the REAL issue. Far to many people think death and injury is something that doesnt, cant, wont happen to them, well guess what? They are wrong and once they recognize that fact and accept its consequences then they can begin to decide what risks are acceptable for THEM. Instead we get threads like this, and cry to the skies because "life shouldnt be like this..." and "we have to do something to stop these people from hurting themselves..." No. What you have to do is accept that beyond the age of 18 YOU are the only one responsible for deciding what risks YOU take, you can learn, listen and observe everything and do your best to stay alive and enjoy YOUR passions as long as possible or you can continue blissfully along thinking nothing will touch you and yours until the day your illusions are torn away... far to many people have been weened with exactly those illusions as a safety blanket and cant seem to cope very well when people (and people they care about) die in the real world, and so scream, kick their heels and cry about how life should be endlessly regulated to prevent their personal pain... Dude, at 18 most teenagers will whine that life sucks and they know better than others. Yet they go on and make the same mistakes that others could have learned from before hand. Then, if they do survive life, they get older and say "If I only knew then what I know now" or "Damn, I guess my parents really did know what they were talking about." Honestly, I learned early in life the pain of what death could bring into your life - not everyone does. I met a 30 year old person at work this week that has never experienced death (not even a grandparent) or been unemployed. She came from a single parent home and busted her ass to do good in life and her jobs. Not everyone has life figured out between 14 and 18. Hell, I'm 30 now and just starting to realize how much I still have to learn about life and I'm listening more to what others have to say, and see if I can learn from them and their past mistakes. Good to see you know better than eveveryone else and don't need to have any guidance. Here, take these scissors and run._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... 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mfrese 0 #31 October 7, 2003 I appreciate all the input from everyone, even the ones that personally bothered me. Let me append a little bit more to this thread, then I'll make like skybytch and get out of here before I start turning into "man angry" - In this instance, this guys home DZO DID refuse to let him jump it. - He asked the advice of several experienced jumpers and instructors who all told him to take his time and stay conservative. - He asked the advice of another, VERY experienced instructor, who gave him perhaps the best advice I heard: buy whatever parachute you want, then put it under your arm and take it to Perris or Deland, and sign up for a canopy control course where you can learn to fly the fucking thing properly. - He then ended up taking the canopy to a different DZ where they are a little more lax about checking things like logbooks and experience levels. I don't have enough information yet to know exactly what happened, but I know the model and size of canopy involved, and it was definitely a factor in what happened. Where do we stand when this is all over? No closer to an answer. I think this guy made a bad choice, and we could sort of see it coming, because this guy was just BURNING to get better in this sport. You could practically feel his aura light up when he got to the DZ, and it kinda rubbed off on everyone. I only had two short conversations with him, and you could just see the way he was hooked, and how he was just ACHING to get more experience and get better. So it was almost inevitable that he was going to keep trying to downsize. The dealer? Not the first time this has happened, and probably won't be the last. Runs his own operation, not a USPA member, probably feels bad (I hope). We're no closer to an answer, and it ain't gonna bring our friend back anyway. As for what we do with this whole problem...I still don't know the answer, but I can guess what will happen if this keeps up: we're not going to be regulated, we're going to outlawed. I've been thinking seriously about starting to BASE, and it may soon be the only option we have if this shit keeps up. Can't happen? As soon as cars started reaching the point where they were too fast, dangerous, and numerous to be safe, we started making laws to regulate them. How would you like to have skydiving regulated on a state-by-state basis? How'd you like to have to travel 400 miles to jump because your state doesn't allow it? OK, I'm done, sorry to waste the bandwidth, hope it doesn't happen to you. Fly safe, fly free. IcemanDoctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #32 October 7, 2003 Drunk driving is illegal in all 50 states of the USA, but drunk drivers kill some 19,000 people each year in the US. I believe Europe is equally unsuccessful at eliminating drunk driving by regulation. Just how successful is the "War on Drugs"? Some things just can't be enforced by regulation.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #33 October 7, 2003 Just recently an individual purchased "new to them" gear. This gear contained a smaller canopy than this person was ready for. I can say this because I saw the landings under the prior canopy which resulted in several hard landings and an injury. The management at SDA took it upon themselves to ground this individual from flying this smaller canopy until such time this person gained more experience. This person has requestd permission to come back to this DZ to jump this smaller canopy stating that they had put 20+ jumps on the new canopy. The management has agreed with a condition. This person must get private coaching from one of the canopy flight instructors. If the canopy flight instructor clears this person, then they will be welcome to jump here once again. At the end of the day we are all responsible for our own safety. I do agree that something must be done. We all need to take a pro-active stance and encourage people to slow down and take baby steps up. This is not a race, this sport will and does kill. I am tired of friends dying under perfectly good parachutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #34 October 7, 2003 Quote At the end of the day we are all responsible for our own safety. I do agree that something must be done. We all need to take a pro-active stance and encourage people to slow down and take baby steps up. This is not a race, this sport will and does kill. I am tired of friends dying under perfectly good parachutes. Six friends and acquaintances of mine have died under perfectly good parachutes. None of them would have been affected by any of the proposals I've seen: four of them had over 1000 jumps, and the two with <1000 jumps were flying lightly loaded canopies, below the proposed limits. I really wonder if these proposals are aimed at the right audience.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lizzieb 0 #35 October 7, 2003 Quote Six friends and acquaintances of mine have died under perfectly good parachutes. None of them would have been affected by any of the proposals I've seen: four of them had over 1000 jumps, and the two with <1000 jumps were flying lightly loaded canopies, below the proposed limits. I really wonder if these proposals are aimed at the right audience. The proposed regulations will certainly not prevent every fatality. However, there are a large number of them that may have been prevented with such regulation. It might only be a partial solution, but when dealing with life vs. death, it seems to me a partial solution is better than no solution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #36 October 7, 2003 QuoteSix friends and acquaintances of mine have died under perfectly good parachutes. None of them would have been affected by any of the proposals I've seen: four of them had over 1000 jumps, and the two with <1000 jumps were flying lightly loaded canopies, below the proposed limits. I have not advocated one way or the other as far as the proposed WL BSRs. I am saying however, that we as a community can educate our less experienced jumpers. and encourage them to take their time when downsizing their canopy. I understand about your six friends Kallend. I've lost an additonal 3 within the last year. I do not know what the answer is, but I am going to keep listening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #37 October 7, 2003 I think that the fatalities are one thing.. but injuries are much more common and more details need put out on those. There is a general lack of incident reports being filed with the USPA about the non fatal injuries. Accourding to this site alone there are dozens more injuries happening every weekend then what the USPA knows about. I'd file reports if I was allowed to but since I'm not an STA I can't.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #38 October 7, 2003 Quote It might only be a partial solution, but when dealing with life vs. death, it seems to me a partial solution is better than no solution. not when such 'partial solution' regulation affects the pursuit of happiness and enjoyment of those who do not fall into such obvious traps...learn or die but keep it the f#^k off my wave until the number of significant injuries and deaths exceeds the number of people who were/are aware enough of the risks to not make them stupidly.. as i've said before maybe big bold letters on the waiver will help stifle all the wammbulance sirens who cant accept that another’s risk level may exceed their own, and that perhaps people ARE willing to take risks and accept consequences you might find unacceptable.. you can always live YOUR life on the couch, just dont expect everyone to want to sit there with you...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #39 October 7, 2003 QuoteI'd file reports if I was allowed to but since I'm not an STA I can't. You can. Any jumper can. They don't even care if the report isn't on the standard reporting form. If you have details on injuries, send them in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #40 October 7, 2003 QuoteI'd file reports if I was allowed to but since I'm not an STA I can't. Yes you can. Want another job? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivexxl 0 #41 October 7, 2003 Quotecan you honestly tell me that when someone goes to buy a chute, they dont inquire as too the handling characteristics? again, people need to think more. Regardless to any and all of that, a friend was lost. No matter the fault or reason, respect is due. We have all done some dumb shit and come out unscathed. Everyone on this site can type whatever they want, and many think they're the "expert". Anyone can check anyone else's experience in the sport by hitting the profile button and seeing jump #'s. 211 jump's, huh? Know all there is to know then? Survive another 500 then talk. And when that time comes, show some respect and dignity... not throw your ignorant bullshit around like you just did. Stop typing for a few, read this, and see if he "had it coming"! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=694858;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC If ignorance is bliss, you must be peeing your pants! Blog Clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #42 October 7, 2003 Quoteif anyone doesnt know what death is by the time they are 14 then their parents didnt let them out enough .... OK, good to see you have life figured out by 14. Your parents were rock stars. I'll give them a silver star for exposing you to the horrors of the world. Now, can we get back to the real issue?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lizzieb 0 #43 October 7, 2003 Quotelearn or die but keep it the f#^k off my wave until the number of significant injuries and deaths exceeds the number of people who were/are aware enough of the risks to not make them stupidly.. wow...that is quite a statement. i don't need 50% of the people in this sport to die before i want to see a change...even one is enough for me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #44 October 7, 2003 QuoteQuoteSix friends and acquaintances of mine have died under perfectly good parachutes. None of them would have been affected by any of the proposals I've seen: four of them had over 1000 jumps, and the two with <1000 jumps were flying lightly loaded canopies, below the proposed limits. I have not advocated one way or the other as far as the proposed WL BSRs. I am saying however, that we as a community can educate our less experienced jumpers. and encourage them to take their time when downsizing their canopy. I understand about your six friends Kallend. I've lost an additonal 3 within the last year. I do not know what the answer is, but I am going to keep listening. I'm with Kallend as far as the WL BSR - this BSR if implememented won't save anyone, wouldn't have saved our friends...... I, like you, will keep my ears open....but don't stop talking either - what you say just may keep someone alive. We don't need a change in the rules. We need a change in the perceptions and this needs to happen on a DZ by DZ basis. And we all know there are DZOs out there that don't care about your jump numbers, WL, canopy size, what your currency is, if you have a license, if you have a logbook, what direction you land etc.....maybe we need a DZ blacklisting as well._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #45 October 7, 2003 Hey, I'm with you...don't need regulations, just need smarter skydivers, right? Maybe regulation isn't the answer...maybe we just need to make sure we are taking care of our own, and watching out for them when they're making a bad choice. I've had students who were determined to do stupid shit when I told them flat out they weren't experienced enough or qualified to do it, and they didn't...when I was working with them. If they then chose to go the same stupid shit at another dropzone, I can't control that...but at least I can sleep at night 'cause I made the effort. All I'm saying is that EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS SPORT owes it to ourselves and our skydiving brethren to watch out for each other...or someone will do it for us. IcemanDoctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #46 October 7, 2003 QuoteQuotelearn or die but keep it the f#^k off my wave until the number of significant injuries and deaths exceeds the number of people who were/are aware enough of the risks to not make them stupidly.. wow...that is quite a statement. i don't need 50% of the people in this sport to die before i want to see a change...even one is enough for me hmm wasnt the "if it saves a single life its worthwhile" in the death of Common Sense thread?? sorry but until you can decisively show that more people are being hurt than are learning to fly without such graphic lessons regulation is unwarranted and punishes those who can and do learn and seek knowledge for the sake of a handful who could not... QuoteQuoteif anyone doesnt know what death is by the time they are 14 then their parents didnt let them out enough .... OK, good to see you have life figured out by 14. Your parents were rock stars. I'll give them a silver star for exposing you to the horrors of the world. Now, can we get back to the real issue? that is the REAL issue. Far to many people think death and injury is something that doesnt, cant, wont happen to them, well guess what? They are wrong and once they recognize that fact and accept its consequences then they can begin to decide what risks are acceptable for THEM. Instead we get threads like this, and cry to the skies because "life shouldnt be like this..." and "we have to do something to stop these people from hurting themselves..." No. What you have to do is accept that beyond the age of 18 YOU are the only one responsible for deciding what risks YOU take, you can learn, listen and observe everything and do your best to stay alive and enjoy YOUR passions as long as possible or you can continue blissfully along thinking nothing will touch you and yours until the day your illusions are torn away... far to many people have been weened with exactly those illusions as a safety blanket and cant seem to cope very well when people (and people they care about) die in the real world, and so scream, kick their heels and cry about how life should be endlessly regulated to prevent their personal pain... whats that? sounds like the wammmbulance again.....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #47 October 7, 2003 QuoteQuoteif anyone doesnt know what death is by the time they are 14 then their parents didnt let them out enough .... OK, good to see you have life figured out by 14. Your parents were rock stars. I'll give them a silver star for exposing you to the horrors of the world. Now, can we get back to the real issue? that is the REAL issue. Far to many people think death and injury is something that doesnt, cant, wont happen to them, well guess what? They are wrong and once they recognize that fact and accept its consequences then they can begin to decide what risks are acceptable for THEM. Instead we get threads like this, and cry to the skies because "life shouldnt be like this..." and "we have to do something to stop these people from hurting themselves..." No. What you have to do is accept that beyond the age of 18 YOU are the only one responsible for deciding what risks YOU take, you can learn, listen and observe everything and do your best to stay alive and enjoy YOUR passions as long as possible or you can continue blissfully along thinking nothing will touch you and yours until the day your illusions are torn away... far to many people have been weened with exactly those illusions as a safety blanket and cant seem to cope very well when people (and people they care about) die in the real world, and so scream, kick their heels and cry about how life should be endlessly regulated to prevent their personal pain... Dude, at 18 most teenagers will whine that life sucks and they know better than others. Yet they go on and make the same mistakes that others could have learned from before hand. Then, if they do survive life, they get older and say "If I only knew then what I know now" or "Damn, I guess my parents really did know what they were talking about." Honestly, I learned early in life the pain of what death could bring into your life - not everyone does. I met a 30 year old person at work this week that has never experienced death (not even a grandparent) or been unemployed. She came from a single parent home and busted her ass to do good in life and her jobs. Not everyone has life figured out between 14 and 18. Hell, I'm 30 now and just starting to realize how much I still have to learn about life and I'm listening more to what others have to say, and see if I can learn from them and their past mistakes. Good to see you know better than eveveryone else and don't need to have any guidance. Here, take these scissors and run._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #48 October 8, 2003 I really don't know what to say.. how to stop it.. Paul's wingloading wasn't ridiculoously aggressive, probably not much over 1.1:1, but what the f*ck was he doing on a Stiletto, even if it was a 190? How do we stop that? chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #49 October 8, 2003 QuoteHey, I'm with you...don't need regulations, just need smarter skydivers, right? Maybe regulation isn't the answer...maybe we just need to make sure we are taking care of our own, and watching out for them when they're making a bad choice. I've had students who were determined to do stupid shit when I told them flat out they weren't experienced enough or qualified to do it, and they didn't...when I was working with them. If they then chose to go the same stupid shit at another dropzone, I can't control that...but at least I can sleep at night 'cause I made the effort. All I'm saying is that EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS SPORT owes it to ourselves and our skydiving brethren to watch out for each other...or someone will do it for us. Iceman Well said Iceman, well said._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #50 October 8, 2003 Oddly enough, considering I'm the one who started this thread, I pretty much agree with you. In fact, down deep, almost every skydiver recognizes this and take it to heart. The problem is that we (well, most of us) live in America, the country founded by lawyers and run by litigation. If this sort of thing continues (newbies pounding in under equipment they weren't prepared to handle, sold to them by unscrupulous, slavering dealers who only want your money and your health be damned), sooner or later, some smart attorney is going to find the right client, in the right state, with the right judge, and we are all grounded. I'm no attorney, but maybe lawrocket can drop an opinion here...I believe that in the current post-9/11 climate in this country, something like this becomes almost inevitable if we don't do something in OUR WORLD to make it change. Does that suck? Yep. Is it fair to the rest of us who recognize the risks we take and do it anyway? Nope. Could it happen? I believe it could. And now, I am well and truly done with this thread. Pax, blue skies to all, hope you all live to tell us all about it over a beer. IcemanDoctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
