to cut-away or not?

[goose491 0]

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He very politely chewed my ass and sited NUMEROUS things that could have complicated my attempt to land this canopy. They ranged from the toggle to releasing while on final, someone crossing in front of me on fnal, a puff of cross wind, the right side of the canopy stalling during rear riser flare etc etc. etc.

As many have pointed out, why chop a canopy which is flying safely and is determined landable by the pilot?

Answer? Because it might get worse lower to the ground.

Truthfully, if you can determine that the problem won't get worse, then you know the flight characteristics are not going to change either.

I.e. the right side won't stall when you flare if it didn't stall when you did some practice flares.

I think Bill put is best really. The question isn't whether to chop a good canopy or not... but what to do when you question it? Me, I say: 1) determine if the canopy is flyable/landable via cotrollability check and then 2) ascertain what the nature of the problem is and if it's got the potential for getting worse.

In your case, you have identified the knot as the problem and you have determined that it would not come undone on it's own. So you can count on the flight characteristics displayed during your controllability check and practice flares.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[airtwardo 7]

My intuitive response to the initial post was, use the knife to cut the stuck toggle, leave the other one and land with the back risers.


***

That "is" a viable option, and yes you 'could' steer and flare with the rear risers....

That being said, there are a number of factors to consider, among them your 'currency' in landing a canopy...in a stressful situation...in a possibly crowded landing area, using that method.

I may be alone in my thinking on this point, but "I" always consider my hook KNIVES to be a 'last option' emergency - life saving tool.

Something that would ONLY come into play after the silver has been pulled...(I don't do CRW or BASE anymore)

AS 'MJOSparky' often says: "Under canopy is not the time to start 'rigging'..."

And as a side note; Years ago I had a 'double malfunction' at Elsinore....Streamered main, then a spinning 'lines over' on the reserve...I started hacking away with a hook knife and because of the situation and my limited experience at the time...cut a few of the WRONG lines!

I finally got it squared away enough that I made a survivable - no injury landing...but I was down to ONE line left on that riser group.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Feeblemind 1]

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He very politely chewed my ass and sited NUMEROUS things that could have complicated my attempt to land this canopy. They ranged from the toggle to releasing while on final, someone crossing in front of me on fnal, a puff of cross wind, the right side of the canopy stalling during rear riser flare etc etc. etc.

As many have pointed out, why chop a canopy which is flying safely and is determined landable by the pilot?

Answer? Because it might get worse lower to the ground.

Truthfully, if you can determine that the problem won't get worse, then you know the flight characteristics are not going to change either.

I.e. the right side won't stall when you flare if it didn't stall when you did some practice flares.

I think Bill put is best really. The question isn't whether to chop a good canopy or not... but what to do when you question it? Me, I say: 1) determine if the canopy is flyable/landable via cotrollability check and then 2) ascertain what the nature of the problem is and if it's got the potential for getting worse.

In your case, you have identified the knot as the problem and you have determined that it would not come undone on it's own. So you can count on the flight characteristics displayed during your controllability check and practice flares.

Goose,

As I indicated he added in numerous variables to the equation that were not present at 2500 feet. The toggle releasing was the one I knew would not occur. With that said other jumpers on the ground, the right side of the canopy stalling on flare (air density at 2500 ft is obviously different then ground level) or a puff of crosswind. it was his opinion and he chewed me a bit, I am over it. I think his preface of the chewing was to get me to consider things I might not have which could have had less than desirable result.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[AFFI 0]

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Truthfully, if you can determine that the problem won't get worse, then you know the flight characteristics are not going to change either.

I.e. the right side won't stall when you flare if it didn't stall when you did some practice flares.

This is NOT an accurate statement…

There are a lot of ambiguous aspects to situations that will change with variations in the density (viscosity) of the air at varying altitudes as well as variations in wind conditions as well as positioning in the saddle (one may become more apprehensive lower to the ground thus shift in their saddle) as well as distractions like calling to friends on the ground that you have a problem as well as the possibility of the necessity to take evasive action low to the ground in order to miss an obstacle – I could probably go on but hopefully my point is well taken. Many varying conditions and aspects change and there are high levels of ambiguity when it comes to gliding a parachute down in the midst of mother nature, and she can and will throw sliders, changes ups, curve balls and fast pitches (baseball analogy since it is World Series time) at any time.

As I said before, when I had 300 jumps I knew it all, had it all figured out and the longer I stayed in the soprt, the more I trained and studied the more I realized the importance of respect for the ambigious nature of all the circumstances that encompass any given situation.

I think some of Bill’s previous posting bear repeating. This will probably be my last posting on this issue which has gotten more postings from me than any other topic – guess I am tired of seeing friends get fucked up because they THOUGHT they could land a parachute with a problem.

“Like Mike told Sully, if you name it you get attached to it.” So ya pay your money and take your chances and as I have learned lately from some very experienced skydivers getting killed, no matter how well you educate and train yourself, shit can still happen…

Billvon Wrote:
“I don't think the issue in question is whether you should cut away a canopy that is in fact safe to land. Nor is the question should you cut away a canopy that cannot be landed safely. The question is - what do you do if you're not 100% sure, when your canopy falls between those two extremes?

And I think the only reasonable answer is "it depends."

So you have to weigh the odds of landing your main safely against the small chance of a reserve mal. Reserves can malfunction even if properly assembled, maintained, packed and operated. Does the main have a minor problem that does not affect its controllability much, and it isn't getting worse? Then it might make sense to land it. What if it _is_ getting worse? Then it might be a better idea to not wait until 500 feet to see how bad it gets. As always, this decision is up to the individual jumper. And it's not always a slam dunk, because no two openings, jumps, minor or major malfunctions, or reserve deployments are quite the same.”

[skyzures 0]

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IMHO slice and dice won't help you. Your canopy would be in full flight, but you can not flare with brakes.

More than full flight. It'll be controllable and predictable (no chances of the stuck toggle popping up at low altitude) Doing a PLF under a stable canopy, landing where you planned certainly isn't too much fun, but shouldn't be too bad as well... (a torn toggle is considered a "small" mal, isn't it?)

[goose491 0]

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(air density at 2500 ft is obviously different then ground level)

Yes, yes it is.

a) Generally, the air density decreases with altitude.

b) Stall speed will increase as the Air Density decreases.

a + b = Stall speed will decrease as altitude decreases.

A wing is capable of a slower speed before it stalls, the lower it is. Now, the difference between 2500ft and ground level is near negligible... but it is in your favor.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

Mykel, again you presume too much.

My statement was simple, if you can ascertain that the problem won't get worse, you can count on the same flight characteristics you got out of the wing during the controllability check.

-Air Density does change with altitude yes. The difference will not be noticeable from 2500ft to the ground but even if it were, stall speed decreases as air density increases so it is a moot point, it works in our jumpers favor.

-Positioning in the saddle is an input... not a flight characteristic.

-Distractions while shouting at friends on the ground is an action which might cause an involuntary input... not a flight characteristic.

I am not a "know it all". Your calling me one is just as unnecessary as your poor interpretation of my posts

Anyway, the statement is not false. If you can ascertain that the actual, physical problem will not worsen, then you can count on the same flight characteristics you got during your controllability check.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Rory81 0]

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My intuitive response to the initial post was, use the knife to cut the stuck toggle, leave the other one and land with the back risers.

IMHO slice and dice won't help you. Your canopy would be in full flight, but you can not flare with brakes.

why not? you can get powerful flares using rear risers. To cut the stuck toggle and control the canopy in full flight with rear risers seems to be a good way to deal with the situation. Of course im not very experienced, but there's people at my DZ that actually lands on rear risers all the time, i use to practice rear riser flares up high and they are more than you need to get a safe landing, so what could be the problem?

[skyzures 0]

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My intuitive response to the initial post was, use the knife to cut the stuck toggle, leave the other one and land with the back risers.

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I may be alone in my thinking on this point, but "I" always consider my hook KNIVES to be a 'last option' emergency - life saving tool.
...
AS 'MJOSparky' often says: "Under canopy is not the time to start 'rigging'..."

And I thought it's all about alternatives
Rigging first (when you're high enough) and then cutting away if you don't really like your new creation is one option more than cutting away and finding out that you'd rather be rigging...
IMHO having a rule like considering the hook knife/ves as last resort may narrow your alternatives at times (and no, I'm not teasing, just really interested in dealing with emergencies

[phoenixlpr 0]

Notice, those guys are langing their main from full flight or from a hook turn. If you practiced go ahaed, but if you just seen that it could be really stupid thing to do.

A repack of a reserve is still simpler than a lower brake line replacement.

[JohnMitchell 16]

A few years ago I landed a DC-5 with a broken a-line. Flew fine up high but the last 100 feet it became apparent that I had a high rate of descent and little forward speed. It dropped like a brick when I flared. With a great PLF (used to jump rounds, so I'm really good as those) I got away with a massive sprain and a cracked leg bone, 3 weeks on crutches. A friend of mine broke his back in a similiar situation. At 100 feet, I wished I had cut away. Later, getting x-rayed, I really wished I had cutaway.

[airtwardo 7]

And I thought it's all about alternatives
Rigging first (when you're high enough) and then cutting away if you don't really like your new creation is one option more than cutting away and finding out that you'd rather be rigging...
IMHO having a rule like considering the hook knife/ves as last resort may narrow your alternatives at times (and no, I'm not teasing, just really interested in dealing with emergencies )

***

Okay, lets look at a possible 'worst case' scenario...

Open and doing your control check at 2500', you realize you have a problem with the steering line and spend a few moments trying to clear it.

It won't clear and you can't be sure it won't unknot during your landing...even if you're fast...your at or below 2000'...

Lets say your 'hard deck' is 1500'

Keeping in mind you're rather busy up there because you have to keep checking your air for traffic...and are having to hold that 'released' side down to continue straight flight and not lose any more altitude than you have to by spinning.

You decide to go with the 'rigging' option and get the knife out, make sure of what and where you're cutting and slice away...

If you cut it, and know what you are doing as far as rear riser control...off to the LZ you go....

But, say after you've cut the line you realize that the canopy isn't flying the way you thought it would / should...
At or already below your hard deck you go through EP's and unless you have a 'skyhook' you're now getting close to a grand....and ~I'll be darned...look at THAT a line over on my reserve.

You now have a lot less time to rig THAT problem than you would have had you discovered it 500-1000' higher.

Sure it's a one in a million 'never happen' kind of thing, but I HAVE had a line over on a reserve that was out at 1800'...Spinning like a bitch, I got it squared away "AS I HIT"...so It can happen.

If there is any problem with my main, I have it in my mind to just say good bye, I want as much time as possible under #2 to make sure I can land safe.

And I talking terrain, winds, traffic...or 'rigging'.

As we all know, this sport is often a game of seconds...and the most important ones are always at the END.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Feeblemind 1]

Thanks everyone for the input! I got alot out of this topic and it generated a learning enviornment which is what i was striving for.

In my particular situation I did land the canopy. As many others have said I went through a thought process before my hard deck and determined I could land safely (which I did).

With that said many jumpers with alot more experience voiced many different scenerios that could have happened (Mr. Murphy was doing a Mr. Bill on the skidive, what makes me think he is not into canopy flight?) resulting in a less than desirable landng situation. I just hope if one of you is in a similiar situation you will take the time to Identify, evaluate, and mitigate the situation so you walk away to skydive another day.

That is all!! Stay Safe!!!!!

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[peckerhead 0]

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>why cutaway a perfectly safe to land main canopy, if in FACT it is SAFE to land . . .

I don't think the issue in question is whether you should cut away a canopy that is in fact safe to land. Nor is the question should you cut away a canopy that cannot be landed safely. The question is - what do you do if you're not 100% sure, when your canopy falls between those two extremes?

And I think the only reasonable answer is "it depends." If you open your parachute and it feels funny - turns a little bit more in one direction - what's wrong with it? Has it just blown an upper seam that you can't see, and it's getting worse and worse? Or are you just sitting in the harness funny? In most cases, people who open and notice that their canopy seems to have acquired a built-in turn are going to land it unless there are other problems. And indeed, experience has shown that some canopies _do_ have built-in turns, and minor problems like changing line trim or unevenly weighted harnesses can cause turns as well.

So you have to weigh the odds of landing your main safely against the small chance of a reserve mal. Reserves can malfunction even if properly assembled, maintained, packed and operated. Does the main have a minor problem that does not affect its controllability much, and it isn't getting worse? Then it might make sense to land it. What if it _is_ getting worse? Then it might be a better idea to not wait until 500 feet to see how bad it gets. As always, this decision is up to the individual jumper. And it's not always a slam dunk, because no two openings, jumps, minor or major malfunctions, or reserve deployments are quite the same.

That is what I was trying to say but, You said it much better.

[reinhart36 0]

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With that said Mr. Murphy was already doing a Mr. Bill with me on this skydive

Excuse my ignorance, but who is Mr. Bill???

[phoenixlpr 0]

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With that said Mr. Murphy was already doing a Mr. Bill with me on this skydive

Excuse my ignorance, but who is Mr. Bill???

His nick name is "Search". He is living on the right hand bottom corner of all page here....

Or just check to skydivingmovies.com. Here are several Mr. Bills there.

[RyanOBrian 0]

I have ALOT less experiance but I had a very similar situation.... after I deployed I went to unstow my toggles and one of them wouldn't come unstowed. I thought about chopping it but the tried flying around on the rears as well. Like you did.. I decided to land on my rears as well. Well flying a 190 at the time it takes alot more effort to flare and turn on the rears when you have a 190 over your head. I practiced a little to much up high so when it came down to my base and final I was out of strength and had to use both hands on my left turn. And used the last of my strength to flare. Wasnt standup but I was safe.
I got mixed answers as well most people said I made a good descision. And it is entirely up to the canopy pilot. No one else was up there with you, and saw what you saw. At least thats what people said to me. Good job on a safe landing


edit: just realized this is an OLD topic haha