feuergnom 29 #26 July 26, 2011 ok this is not directed at you, just a general note from a strong rated TI and to add to the discussion when the y-mod came out I was pretty pissed because it was the direct result of an instructor fuck-up. would i want to be in his shoes: fuck no! but i wouldn't want to be in ANY instructors shoes who has developed the bad habit of boarding a plane with no harness-adjustment whatsoever and doing his "magic" harness-adjustment-dance in 12.000 ft just a minute before exit either (wonder what these guys would do in an emergency situation....) is the y-mod a fix for a problem that woulnd`t exist if "instructirs" took their job serious? FUCK YEAH! Do i personally like it: no and if i have the coice of gearing up with or without the mod, i go for the old version, because it give the student more fredom of movement (you just can't lift you legs if you tighten the straps...) YMMV do I have to live with it: yes. unfortunatlyThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #27 July 26, 2011 I haven't used the Y mod myself, so I'm wondering: Is it supposed to be snugged up or left loose? That would affect how much it makes it difficult to lift legs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #28 July 27, 2011 Quote So I guess the point I am trying to make is that the Y-Mod does nothing to fix the problem, it only reduces the possible consequences. I would much rather see a concerted effort to raise the general awareness on this issue. Identify and assist any instructors that need to be retrained/rebriefed to bring them up to a higher level of safety. And failing that, isolate the problem and remove it. The Y-Mod doesn't fix the problem it only hides it and I think it's about time that we start holding instructors/DZs accountable for the passengers safety. And I guess the point I am try to make is until we can weed out those TI’s that do not take their responsibility as serious as you do the Y-mod offers the student passenger an added measure of safety. It may be a band aid but Strong thought it was important enough to make it mandatory. The tandem passenger is the “cash cow” of the sport and the sport owes it to them to use every method available to ensure they have a safe jump. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #29 July 27, 2011 Quote I haven't used the Y mod myself, so I'm wondering: Is it supposed to be snugged up or left loose? That would affect how much it makes it difficult to lift legs. ....................................................................... Latest word - from Strong Enterprises - is to leave the Y-strap LOOSE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #30 July 27, 2011 Well said !!! Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,069 #31 July 27, 2011 >So I guess the point I am trying to make is that the Y-Mod does nothing to fix >the problem, it only reduces the possible consequences. This is true of a great many devices. An AAD does nothing to make sure you pull (which is required) but often keeps you alive when you don't. An RSL does nothing to make sure you pull the reserve handle (which is also required during emergency procedures) but also often keeps you alive when you don't. An AAD may make a poor skydiver safer - but it will make a safe skydiver even more so. Similarly, the Y mod may indeed be a band-aid for poor instructors, but will make students safer even with good instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomNoonan 1 #32 July 27, 2011 Quote Oh and I think I know the dude in the photo... Last time she was naked. The picture is a screen capture after the TI left the plane in a linked head down flower exit with the videographer (also a TI). They held the linked exit until it stabilized head down, then they released and the TI held the head down orientation on his own. This occurred on a USPA Dropzone, the jump was made by a USPA TI, and there is a USPA and UPT T/E full time on the drop zone. Like I said, those of you that enjoy working in this industry as tandem instructors may want to consider earning your AFF or S/L rating, because it will only take one TI out there flying for himself and not the passenger to bring our national tandem industry to a screeching halt.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #33 July 27, 2011 Quote Quote Oh and I think I know the dude in the photo... Last time she was naked. The picture is a screen capture after the TI left the plane in a linked head down flower exit with the videographer (also a TI). They held the linked exit until it stabilized head down, then they released and the TI held the head down orientation on his own. This occurred on a USPA Dropzone, the jump was made by a USPA TI, and there is a USPA and UPT T/E full time on the drop zone. Like I said, those of you that enjoy working in this industry as tandem instructors may want to consider earning your AFF or S/L rating, because it will only take one TI out there flying for himself and not the passenger to bring our national tandem industry to a screeching halt. Since it appears you know who this TI is have you taken any steps to notify USPA and UPT of the situation? If not why? After all we are supposed to be self policing. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomNoonan 1 #34 July 27, 2011 Hi Sparky, Still don't know who the TI is, am working on that, this isn't a recent action, its from 2009, don't know if he even still works there, but I just got it, and yes, appropriate parties are involved. Curious though, of all the info presented, that was your only question? Out of courtesy to all involved, I am not going to further comment on the incident, its still in progress. I posted the pic only to illustrate what our industry is facing beyond just the harness issue. Whether it was today or 2009, the thing to take away from this is that it occured after the Ohio incident, a moment you'd like to think our entire industry stopped and took stock of how we were operating.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #35 July 28, 2011 The real problem Mike is that when evidence is handed over to the USPA, it too frequently gets no action as the RD or others are "friends" with the DZO's and simply cover the whole thing up rather than make the example that needs to be made.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #36 July 28, 2011 Quote The real problem Mike is that when evidence is handed over to the USPA, it too frequently gets no action as the RD or others are "friends" with the DZO's and simply cover the whole thing up rather than make the example that needs to be made. It's the fox watching the chickens. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #37 July 29, 2011 please see the attached photo Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #38 July 29, 2011 Quote please see the attached photo Cheers That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have seen. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #39 July 29, 2011 Quote Quote please see the attached photo Cheers That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have seen. Sparky How about THIS?"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #40 July 29, 2011 Quote Quote Quote please see the attached photo Cheers That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have seen. Sparky How about THIS? That right there is a shinning example of stupid and unnecessary.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #41 July 30, 2011 Hey man freeflying is all the rage these days, all the cool kidz R doing it..... be sides that, clearly those cats all got mad skillz!you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #42 August 1, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote please see the attached photo Cheers That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have seen. Sparky How about THIS? That right there is a shinning example of stupid and unnecessary. If the tandem passenger is a student or relative novice, I agree. But if he/she is a well-experienced, well-skilled skydiver in his/her own right, then it's just another form of skydiving, with a higher risk factor than some are willing to undertake for themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #43 August 2, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote please see the attached photo Cheers That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have seen. Sparky How about THIS? That right there is a shining example of stupid and unnecessary. If the tandem passenger is a student or relative novice, I agree. But if he/she is a well-experienced, well-skilled skydiver in his/her own right, then it's just another form of skydiving, with a higher risk factor than some are willing to undertake for themselves. ......................................................................... Your point it trivial. Experienced skydivers only ride on the front of one ... maybe ... two percent of tandem jumps. NOrmally that practice is limited to training new Tandem Instructors or refresher dives. And the experience of the person on the front does not matter, because the top three tandem manufacturers all frown upon tandem-terminal skydives, EXCEPT when done under the supervision of a Tandem Examiner. You would not be giving that advice if you had experienced a tandem-terminal reserve opening. I have done that twice, and the second time, it took a week - and a licensed massage therapist - to straighten out my neck! Can you say OUUUUUCH!!!??? Rob Warner Strong Tandem Examiner Vector TI since 1986 Racer TI since 1996 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #44 August 2, 2011 Quote Your point is trivial. Ha. Wait till you get my bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #45 August 2, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote please see the attached photo Cheers That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have seen. Sparky How about THIS? That right there is a shinning example of stupid and unnecessary. If the tandem passenger is a student or relative novice, I agree. But if he/she is a well-experienced, well-skilled skydiver in his/her own right, then it's just another form of skydiving, with a higher risk factor than some are willing to undertake for themselves. as much as I value the majority of your posts I have to call BS on that one. imagine the loop breaking while someone is standing on top of that sigma rig - the only difference is three dead experienced morons instead of two + one passengerThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #46 August 2, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote please see the attached photo Cheers That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have seen. Sparky How about THIS? That right there is a shinning example of stupid and unnecessary. If the tandem passenger is a student or relative novice, I agree. But if he/she is a well-experienced, well-skilled skydiver in his/her own right, then it's just another form of skydiving, with a higher risk factor than some are willing to undertake for themselves. as much as I value the majority of your posts I have to call BS on that one. imagine the loop breaking while someone is standing on top of that sigma rig - the only difference is three dead experienced morons instead of two + one passenger I'm not saying it's smart. I agree with you about the high degree of risk. I'm just saying that if all involved - including the passenger - are well-experienced skydivers, then it's voluntary risk-taking by people who know (or should know) what they're getting themselves into, as opposed to exploiting a novice's naivete to put the unwitting novice in excessive harm's way. Nothing more, nothing less. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #47 August 2, 2011 Quote I'm not saying it's smart. I agree with you about the high degree of risk. I'm just saying that if all involved - including the passenger - are well-experienced skydivers, then it's voluntary risk-taking by people who know (or should know) what they're getting themselves into, as opposed to exploiting a novice's naivete to put the unwitting novice in excessive harm's way. Nothing more, nothing less. I completely disagree with you. If experienced skydivers want to go have fun and do crazy stuff, they are more than welcome to do so wearing their own gear. They can leave tandem rigs out of it. "Four dead in tandem skydiving accident" reads the same to wuffos and regulatory agencies regardless of who exactly the passenger was. My DZ's ability to operate (and likely yours as well) is dependent upon people not mucking things up with tandem fatalities. It's selfish and irresponsible, period. I support people doing stuff for fun and to push the limits. I participate in most of the disciplines this sport offers including swooping. I also support qualified people who choose to be on the edge in many cases, but a problem here would be too damaging to our sport.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #49 August 3, 2011 I cannot remember exactly when (3 or 4 years ago)Strong introduced the Y-Strap, but all new student harnesses have been shipped with Y-Straps since then. That same winter, I sewed Y-Straps onto a bunch (20-ish) of Strong Student harnesses. Since then, every student harness has returned from its 8 year - or 13 year inspection - with a new Y-Strap, so in another few years, all the Strong student harnesses will have Y-Straps. Any harnesses more than 18 years old have retired. That leaves a only a few harnesses without Y-Straps. Strong Enterprises will sew on Y-Straps as part of their regular 8-year inspections. I guess that makes Y-Straps mandatory within the next three-ish years! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aerorigging 6 #50 August 3, 2011 Tanks for all your info. Very helpfull NicoNicolas Lopez Master Rigger Aerorigging Parachute Loft Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
