Y mod tandem mandatory?

[aerorigging 6]

The passenger arnes Y mod is mandatory ? in Strong and Sigma?

Tanks

Nicolas Lopez
Master Rigger
Aerorigging Parachute Loft

[stratostar 5]

Not mandatory for strong, however if you send in a PAX HC for recert it will come back with a Y mod installed.

http://www.strongparachutes.com/pages/inf_Strong_press.php#ymod

With some of the fat ass people dz's let go up, it's really not a bad idea or design.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NovaTTT 2]

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With some of the fat ass people dz's let go up,

And those are just the TIs!

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[riggerrob 643]

Strong may not make Y-strap mandatory, but it is certainly a good idea.
When Y-strap was first introduced, we had a lot of customers complain that it prevented them from lifting their legs for landing. The short-term solution was to leave the Y-strap slack.
The long-term solution is to suggest that they do some sit-ups ... in the same century as their jump!
Hah!
Hah!

[stratostar 5]

no I've been working out.....

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mjosparky 4]

Why would you take a passenger up with using all safety mods possible? The only reason I can think of is to save a few bucks.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Fledgling 0]

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Why would you take a passenger up with using all safety mods possible? The only reason I can think of is to save a few bucks.

Sparky

Because it is not necessary. If the instructor adjusts the harness properly it is simply not necessary. The Y-mods only purpose is to keep passengers safe from shit instructors. I personally feel that the Y-mod no Y-mod debate has over shadowed the fact that there is a lot of poorly trained instructors out there. So what is a bigger concern to you. People that jump with out the Y-mod or people that need the Y-mod to jump safely?

[peek 21]

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If the instructor adjusts the harness properly it is simply not necessary. The Y-mods only purpose is to keep passengers safe from shit instructors.

I can't disagree there...

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I personally feel that the Y-mod no Y-mod debate has over shadowed the fact that there is a lot of poorly trained instructors out there.

Is it really that, or is it instructors that start doing things different than they were taught?

If we say that tandem instructors are not being taught correctly, then we have to say that manufacturer's representatives are not training properly.

[Fledgling 0]

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Is it really that, or is it instructors that start doing things different than they were taught?

You may have me there. That is definitely happening too. But whether they were taught badly or just got bad later on the result is the same and I personally believe that for the greater majority Instructor skill levels are pretty low.

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If we say that tandem instructors are not being taught correctly, then we have to say that manufacturer's representatives are not training properly.

I have absolutely no problem saying that at all. I have had the opportunity to travel quite extensively, working at many DZs in a number of countries and can honestly say that I have seen some pretty horrific Instructor Examiners.

[mjosparky 4]

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Why would you take a passenger up with using all safety mods possible? The only reason I can think of is to save a few bucks.

Sparky

Because it is not necessary. If the instructor adjusts the harness properly it is simply not necessary. The Y-mods only purpose is to keep passengers safe from shit instructors. I personally feel that the Y-mod no Y-mod debate has over shadowed the fact that there is a lot of poorly trained instructors out there. So what is a bigger concern to you. People that jump with out the Y-mod or people that need the Y-mod to jump safely?

As long you have instructors strapping passengers into rigs you will instructors that do it wrong. If they all did it right all the time we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
My biggest concern is for the safety of the passenger and making the Y-mod mandatory just might make the difference when needed.

Are you against its use? If so why?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Dokeman 0]

i am seeing a growing trend amount TI's. They will properly fit the harness before boarding as they should, but during their hook up sequence, the cinch up the MLW. Some tightening them up 6 inches or more. The reason for this is while in the seated position (bench or in the floor) the harness feels loose. But by doing this, they are essentially locking then into a somewhat fetal position. The complete OPPOSITE of what you want. If the harness is tight while arching on the ground, how are they supposed to do it after tighten it even further in the plane.. Then on opening, there legs go flying up cause there locked fetal which causes the leg straps to move down their thighs instead of in their crouch where they should be. Ever notice that some tandem students walk funny after landing? Its cause they can't stand up straight cause the harness is to tight. (yea i know, let the jokes fly) How come fun jumpers and aff students don't need the harness adjusted inflight?

[mjosparky 4]

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But by doing this, they are essentially locking then into a somewhat fetal position.

That would be the same as a jumper using a rig with a 14 inch MLW when they should have an 18 inch MLW. The difference is the experienced jumper knows something isn’t right, the tandem student doesn’t.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Fledgling 0]

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Are you against its use? If so why?

Sparky

I am against bandaids. What's next? Harnesses that compensate for instructors who forget their top hooks?

[Fledgling 0]

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i am seeing a growing trend amount TI's. They will properly fit the harness before boarding as they should, but during their hook up sequence, the cinch up the MLW.

That's not a growing trend. Idiots have been doing that for years.

[mjosparky 4]

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Are you against its use? If so why?

Sparky

I am against bandaids. What's next? Harnesses that compensate for instructors who forget their top hooks?

So you would rather see tandem students put at risk than see use of the y-mod?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[TomNoonan 1]

The Y-Mod is mandatory on all Strong Dual Hawk Passenger harnesses. I believe there was a date set to have them all modified by, but I am fuzzy on the exact date. I want to say 12/31/2007, but I am not sure.

You can email: ted@strongparachutes.com or mike@strongparachutes.com to get the definitive date and the field modification instructions if you have a passenger harness in the field without the Y-Mod.

On a related note for those of you in the US that enjoy being a tandem instructor, I would like to give you all something to seriously consider:

Tandem skydiving, like all skydiving activities, is inherently dangerous. The truth is, despite the advances in our sport in both training and equipment, we will continue to see sport and tandem related grave injuries or fatalities periodically. It's in all the waivers we sign for a reason, because unfortunately it can and does happen.

Here's the thing, as a (USPA) self policing industry, the FAA has and continues to give us a tremendous amount of latitude in governing ourselves. That privilege is fragile however, and make no mistake, the FAA is watching us, very closely. I offer this point for your serious consideration, that the next time a passenger is ejected from a harness, do not be surprised when you show up for work the next day and find all of your DZs tandem equipment grounded by your FSDO. If the FAA decides to eventually (eventually in terms of years) let tandem resume, it will be under their watch, not our own, and we will be commercial pilots, having to go through the same certifications and expense.

If we lose tandems, we lose most of our turbines. If we lose most of our turbines, we lose a considerable ability to train new students. If we lose new student volume, our member decreases and we basically end up back a Cessna industry outside a few destination dropzones.

If you are DZO, DZM, S&TA or instructor I would like to ask that you use this as an opportunity to conduct a staff meeting and review proper harness fitting, and give every instructor a copy of the passenger harness fitting instructions of the gear you use. If you are unable to find a copy, contact your respective manufacturer or contact me at noonantommy@yahoo.com and I will arrange for you to get a copy via email.

Whatever your brand is, UPT, Strong or JS, you MUST properly fit the passenger harness completely PRIOR to boarding the aircraft, following the manufacturer specific instructions. To do anything less, jeopardizes our ENTIRE industry.

Lastly, I like to believe in our sport, our industry and the people in it. And for the most part, I do. It seems though, every time I travel and see the right things being done and I start to feel better about the future of the tandem industry, I get an email or a phone call from a concerned skydiver somewhere else in the wolld that shares with me something like this (see attached), and I think to myself, "I better go get my Static Line rating, because it's only a matter of time before we lose the tandem industry with people out there like this still flying for themselves and not the passengers............

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[Fledgling 0]

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Are you against its use? If so why?

Sparky

I am against bandaids. What's next? Harnesses that compensate for instructors who forget their top hooks?

So you would rather see tandem students put at risk than see use of the y-mod?

Sparky

Don't try putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that we need to deal with the root cause of the problem. Not apply bandaids and continue to allow sloppy instructors to continue with their sloppy bad habits.

[Liemberg 0]

Could it be that the TI that doesn't fit the passengers harness in the right way only has his job made more complicated with the Y-mod? If the Y-mod is too tight they can't lift their legs for landing.

Then again, breaking an ankle on landing beats falling out on opening, no discussion there...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[sundevil777 102]

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Are you against its use? If so why?

Sparky

I am against bandaids. What's next? Harnesses that compensate for instructors who forget their top hooks?

So you would rather see tandem students put at risk than see use of the y-mod?

Sparky

Don't try putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that we need to deal with the root cause of the problem. Not apply bandaids and continue to allow sloppy instructors to continue with their sloppy bad habits.

Those are not mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you are thinking that TIs will only be sufficiently motivated to adjust harnesses correctly if they know that their passenger can still fall out due to the lack of the Y mod. I suppose that is true, but we would still have some that screw up. Better to keep emphasizing the right procedure as if the Y mod wasn't there.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[stratostar 5]

Yep.

Not sure why it is so hard to just do it the right way from the start. I just worked a pretty good sized boogie, I only did 14 tandems, but also packed most of those too, each student was trained per 105 and fitted proper and then a double check, before we ever left for the loading area, I also do one in the loading area, same as any other student operation, a grip was maintained on my students at all times once there till on the ac and belted... I never missed a load and was keeping pace with rotation no problem.... it takes no longer to it right then it dose to do half ass.

Oh and I think I know the dude in the photo... Last time she was naked.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mjosparky 4]

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Don't try putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that we need to deal with the root cause of the problem. Not apply bandaids and continue to allow sloppy instructors to continue with their sloppy bad habits.

I didn’t put works in your mouth, I asked you a question that you side stepped.

While you are dealing with the “root cause” why not use a safety device that is available? Refusing to use it means you feel you will never make a mistake or miss something on a gear check.

What are you going to do if it is made mandatory? What will you do if it is left optional?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Fledgling 0]

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I didn’t put works in your mouth, I asked you a question that you side stepped.

I answered your original question of "Why wouldn't people use the Y-Mod unless they were trying to save a few bucks?"The true answer is that when a harness is adjusted correctly there is simply no need for the existence of a Y-Mod. From that point on you have been trying to twist the argument with your questions to "Why would you refuse to use the Y-Mod" and "Don't you care about customer safety" and the like. Neither of which are my actual point of view and I resent the fact that you are repeatedly trying to steer the conversation in that direction.

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While you are dealing with the “root cause” why not use a safety device that is available?

Again I have never said people shouldn't use the Y-Mod. My real concern is that every DZ adds the Y-Mod to their harnesses and skips right over the root cause of the problem all together.

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Refusing to use it means you feel you will never make a mistake or miss something on a gear check.

Miss something like totally forgetting to tighten up your passenger harness?

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What are you going to do if it is made mandatory?

As it has been made mandatory on Strong already I would say I have made several thousand tandem jumps with the Y-Mod.

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What will you do if it is left optional?

As it is not mandatory on Sigmas I will continue to jump the Sigma that i personally own without a Y-Mod, comfortable in the knowledge that for competent instructors it simply isn't necessary.

If you are so adamant that the Y-Mod is necessary then I suggest you take a serious look at the skill level of the instructors that require it to make their harnesses idiot proof. If an instructor can't be trusted to adjust the harness properly then a) Why the hell is the DZ allowing them to do tandems? and b) What other things is that instructor doing in a sloppy half arsed fashion?

[Fledgling 0]

So I guess the point I am trying to make is that the Y-Mod does nothing to fix the problem, it only reduces the possible consequences.
I would much rather see a concerted effort to raise the general awareness on this issue. Identify and assist any instructors that need to be retrained/rebriefed to bring them up to a higher level of safety. And failing that, isolate the problem and remove it.
The Y-Mod doesn't fix the problem it only hides it and I think it's about time that we start holding instructors/DZs accountable for the passengers safety.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Well, refusing a safer PAX harness?
That's a really interesting attitude!

[Dokeman 0]

It would be hard to prove that its safer because NO ONE has ever fallen out of a PROPERLY FIT harness. Period. But I am pro ymod. Would probably leave it slightly looser on normal sized people, but can see the added benefit for taking larger people. I just hope people don't get the idea that its safe to take really fat people because they have a ymod.