He has my vote..... YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pds 0]

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Why does the general public need assault weapons?

e

well, to have the ability to defend oneself from those that do.

it appears that the united states army would like to be the only one to have 'assualt weapons'. why are so many politicians so worried about a well armed populace? hmmmmm..... lol.

unfortunately the the days of throwing off a repressive and misrepresentative government are long gone so it is merely a symbolic gesture, this pesky and persistent effort to preserve second amendment rights.

the point is; stop telling me what i cannot own and what i cannot do. i will decide regardless and i am willing to accept the consequences of my actions. if your laws make me an outlaw i will be an outlaw.

btw, i am laughing right now.

namaste, motherfucker.

[mikkey 0]

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This may have been an urban myth, but didn't gun related crimes skyrocket in Australia shortly after some serious gun control laws were put in place? I'm thinking around 1999?

Nope, not true AFAIK. I have also lived in Europe where gun control is even more strict. Same thing with the stats there. Trust me the stats thing is true. But again, it is your choice. I just know that the majorities in the countries I lived in are very happy with the gun controls.
We agree - it is a cultural thing.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[michaelflying 0]

www.skydivekzn.co.za

[jfields 0]

Mikkey,

I tend toward gun control more than most posters in this forum. I agree with you on the stats, and think that a less armed society would indeed be a more peaceful and safer one. The pro-gun lobby seems to base their argument on a lot of fallacious points. If people stop nitpicking details about particular laws (many of which are indeed flawed), and look at the big picture of our firearms policy, they would see that it clearly isn't working. Our crime rate just does not support the assertion that guns in the hands of average citizens reduces crime.

There ought to be some form of compromise between the mess we have now and a European-style system that is probably at odds with some of the core values of this country. The problem is that there is an ardent and vocal minority that has no interest in compromise. I find it both short-sighted and selfish, but that is the stance they take. They tend to see it as a "slippery slope" argument, regardless of the fact that their stance is putting their lives and the lives of everyone else in jeopardy.

[AggieDave 6]

Do I need to bust out my stats regarding violent crime in Texas again? I know I've posted them in repsonse to you atleast 3 or 4 times.

Pre-CCW, very high violent crime rates.

Post-CCW, violent crime rates cut in half!

Guns work. People who would use a weapons to commit a crime won't go to a proper dealer, they'll pick it up from some guy who also doesn't believe in abiding by the law, thus they'll still be able to get pretty much what they want.

If we really wanted to take care of the crime rate, then we should actually do something about the drug problem in the US.

As a general rule, illegal drugs = more crimes.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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Do I need to bust out my stats regarding violent crime in Texas again? I know I've posted them in repsonse to you atleast 3 or 4 times.

And I've posted stats on how the self-defense usage of guns is insignificant compared to the criminal usage. I've also posted examples of CCW holders committing murders, mentally ill people being given permits and kids killing other kids with their parents legal weapons.

Instead of holding up [sarcasm] the great state of Texas [/sarcasm] as a model of gun safety and low crime to the world, why don't you try comparing our national firearm death rate to the firearm death rate of other countries. Then tell me that our system is working correctly and that the intent of the second amendment is for us to be a world leader... in homicide.

[AggieDave 6]

Seeing how Texas is larger then some of the countries compared too, has more people and has a larger economy, I'll gladly stick to talking about Texas. Especially since the gun laws here are what I consider to be just about perfect.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

Oh, side note, then I'm actually walking away from this thread (I've got WAY too much to get done today to get sucked into defending my rights in another anti-gun thread).


Twice in the past year, the fact that I'm CCW and I'm usually armed prevented what could have been 2 very bad situations.

I'll give you the run down on the first situation, the second one is strangely similar to the first one, although it happened at a later date.

Went to a drive through ATM on the way to go play some pool, although nobody was around the ATM in the general area (that I could see), something pinged off my threat meter. So I took my weapon from where I normally carry it, chambered a round and set it on my leg while I did my transaction. That's perfect legal, since it was dark, the weapon was not visable, thus concealed. Anyways I'm just putting my ATM card in when someone actually knocks on my passenger side window (for those that don't know, I drive a large pickup, so the guy was looking straight into my cab, while standing up straight). I looked at him and he said something along the lines of "I ran out of gas, need gas money" etc. We're 300ft from a gas station that was very busy, if he was out of gas, he would be there asking them. So I told him he was trying to scam me and to fuck off. (Remember, its still dark in my cab). At this point he gets VERY irrate, yelling and screaming at me through the slightly open window and hitting on the window. All the while I'm trying to finish up the ATM transaction and just drive off.

This guy's acting more and more violent, so I flip on my cab light and he notices whats in my right hand. This perp's eyes got HUGE and he took off fast enough to win medals.

Oh, the guy was around 30 years old, medium build...it wasn't some punk kid. I couldn't just drive off, this perp would have my ATM card, as well as an open transaction in the ATM for him to check my balance and get basically every penny I have.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhillyKev 0]

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why don't you try comparing our national firearm death rate to the firearm death rate of other countries.

Switzerland has similar crime rates to Japan and Great Britain. In Switzerland, the purchase of semi automatic rifles and shotguns requires no permit, and adults are free to carry them. Handguns can be bought with firearm purchase permits, which are issued to all adults without a criminal record or a history of mental illness. About 40% of Switzerland's cantons (states) do not require a permit to carry a handgun.

That pretty much debunks the notion that relaxed gun laws is a direct correlation to crime.

The majority of gun related crime in the US is related to illegal drug sales. During prohibition of alcohol, the majority of gun related crime was related to illegal alcohol sales.

Answer this...how much gun related crime is there in the US now related to illegal alcohol sales?

How much would gun related crime decline if prohibition of drugs was ended?

If you want to reduce gun crimes, you don't ban guns. You ban stupid, unenforceable laws that promote criminal activity and enormous underground, criminal economies.

[lawrocket 3]

Does anybody here remember the spate of carjackings and killings of foreign tourists several years back in Florida? Many of them were European tourists.

This rash of carjackings against tourists happened shortly after Florida passed CCW laws that allowed many more people to carry them. Thus, those people in Florida driving cars with Florida plates and no rental car logos were ignored.

But, the criminals knew that those in rental cars were in all probability tourists, and the CCW laws didn't apply to them. They knew that the tourists wouldn't be packing heat, and thus became targets.

It turned out that the armed society was a polite one. Thugs don't go after people whom they suspect to have weapons. It's too risky. It turns out that the restrictive gun laws are preventing the great equalizer.

This is why Rosie O'Donnell, she of anti-gun fame, has no problem with her bodyguard applying for a concealed weapons permit. As she told People magazine, "Whether or not my family is in need of armed guards, that doesn't change my position on gun control."

Simply put, gun control advocates tend to believe that society can't be trusted with guns. Many of them think that they can, though. They recognize that guns allow people to protect themselves.

That means that they can't offer platforms saying that THEY will protect us.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jfields 0]

Dave,

Way to dodge the point.

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Seeing how Texas is larger then some of the countries compared too, has more people and has a larger economy, I'll gladly stick to talking about Texas.

But even if you want to stick to Texas, how do you think it stacks up in per capita homicide to other countries? Do you really want to see those comparisons?

Quote

Especially since the gun laws here are what I consider to be just about perfect.

Do you want me to start listing examples of firearm murder victims and accidental firearm deaths from Texas' "just about perfect" system?


Dave, just recite this in a loud voice and I'll stop contradicting you:

"I just want my guns, god damnit, and I don't care about the cost to the innocent victims in the United States."

At least then we'll have an honest starting point for discussion, without the false pretense of alleged rights, supposed self-defense or bogus stats showing how good guns are.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Do you want me to start listing examples of firearm murder victims and accidental firearm deaths from Texas' "just about perfect" system?

No, list the statistics from Switzerland or Finland, who have almost the same number of guns per capita.

[jfields 0]

Kevin,

Okay, Switzerland has a similar (low) crime rates to Japan and Great Britain, with lax gun laws. Fine. No arguement there. Give examples of countries with crime rates equivalent to ours and lets look at their policies and cultures.

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That pretty much debunks the notion that relaxed gun laws is a direct correlation to crime.

Just like our heavily armed population and high crime rate debunk the notion that an armed society is a polite society. It isn't the presence or absence of guns that have the biggest effect in determining the crime rate. It is the culture. That said, in our culture, we are disposed to violence. Given that tendency, does arming a large chunk of the population and facilitating the ease of homicide and magnifying the potential lethality of attacks make sense?

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How much would gun related crime decline if prohibition of drugs was ended?

No argument. A lot. Chances of it happening? Damned slim.

Quote

The majority of gun related crime in the US is related to illegal drug sales.

If you took our gun crime stats, backed out all the drug-related ones, I bet you would still have a higher per capita firearm murder rate than most of Europe. Sure, drugs are some, but without that, we still have a huge gun violence problem.

[jfields 0]

Dave,

Your story actually does nothing to show how your gun made you safer. It showed you placing the value of your ATM card on par with your life or the other guy's, in what was likely a non-life threatening situation. To me, that is both very sad and a little pathetic.

You had plenty of other options, but you chose not to take them.

1) Not provoke the guy further, and buy yourself some time before leaving.
2) Lean on your horn to attract attention. Likely the guy would bolt.
3) If you had a cell phone, dial 911 and begin loudly explaining the situation to the dispatcher.
4) Punch "Cancel", snag your card and drive away.
5) Hit "Cancel" and just drive away. ATM card is useless and replaceable.
6) Just drive away. Screw the ATM card.


The fact that this happened to you twice shows that you are probably relying on your firearm to solve problems you get into, instead of your intellect to keep you out of them in the first place.

[AggieDave 6]

Way to go Armchair quarter back.

You weren't there and you only have the very fast rundown of what happened and instantly your a fucking expert.

You absofuckingly amaze some times.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,068]

>Went to a drive through ATM on the way to go play some pool,
> although nobody was around the ATM in the general area (that I
> could see), something pinged off my threat meter. So I took my
> weapon from where I normally carry it, chambered a round and set it
> on my leg while I did my transaction.

I remember talking to a guy at Quincy a while back about getting on a zoo freefly with his friends. "What's the worst that can happen?" he asked. "You could get hit hard by someone who can't freefly," I said. "Maybe a 2-way would be a better idea." "Naah, I got a cypres!" Was his cypres really keeping him safe?

I'm glad your gun made you feel confident enough to remain in a potentially dangerous situation, but I think you'd be safer if you had the gun, kept it concealed - AND avoided dangerous situations. A gun is a great tool; it's not an impregnable defense against crazies.

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm glad your gun made you feel confident enough to remain in a potentially dangerous situation, but I think you'd be safer if you had the gun, kept it concealed - AND avoided dangerous situations. A gun is a great tool; it's not an impregnable defense against crazies.

Once again, you weren't fucking there! I gave the quick run down of what happened.

Its always the liberals that arm-chair quarterback stuff they don't have any clue about. "I wasn't there, I don't have the full story, but this is what you should have done."

Bill, you're a very smart man, you should know better then that.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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You weren't there and you only have the very fast rundown of what happened and instantly your a fucking expert.

I never said I was an expert. I just question the fact that bringing firearms into the mix and potentially escalating the situation was the only option.

I'm sincerely glad you are okay.

[lawrocket 3]

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"I just want my guns, god damnit, and I don't care about the cost to the innocent victims in the United States."

You've hit the nail on the head on this one, only you are talking to the wrong guy.

The criminals will say, "I just want my guns, god damnit, and I don't care about the cost to the innocent victims in the United States."

Meanwhile, people like the Aggie DO care about the cost of innocent lives. Therefore, the Aggie carries a gun. Aggie's life is an innocent life. Criminals don't care about Aggie's life, or yours, or mine.

Therefore, Aggie wants his gun for the purpose of preserving his innocent life, and the precious innocent lives of others who place no value on these lives. Those thugs place value on THEIR lives, though. And the only force that can neutralize their will is an equal force.

I'd like to ask this question: should cops stop carrying guns? If guns take innocent lives, there should be no reason for a cop to carry a firearm, right? Maybe stand down the SWAT Teams, with their snipers and machine guns. SWAT teams would only hurt innocent people.

Or maybe the cops have it figured out that when you face a bad guy with a firearm, you can only protect yourself, and other innocent lives with the force of a firearm.

Please let me know whether you think cops, whose job it is to protect innocent lives, should be disarmed in this society. I'm interested in reading your response.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jfields 0]

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Its always the liberals that arm-chair quarterback stuff they don't have any clue about.

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Bill, you're a very smart man, you should know better then that.

You are smart too, Dave, which is why you should have known better than to lump everything and everyone together into silly stereotypes.

[Ron 10]

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There ought to be some form of compromise between the mess we have now and a European-style
system that is probably at odds with some of the core values of this country. The problem is that there
is an ardent and vocal minority that has no interest in compromise. I find it both short-sighted and
selfish, but that is the stance they take.

How about yours and your types "Guns are bad" stance?

You can't even admit that they can be a good thing.

A properly armed, properly trained civilian is a way to reduce crime.

If you like the way some places in the world have gun laws...move there.

Don't allow them in your home.

But don't try to take them from mine.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,068]

>Its always the liberals that arm-chair quarterback stuff they don't
> have any clue about. "I wasn't there, I don't have the full story, but
> this is what you should have done."

OK, here's an idea. Let's take an example that is NOT your story above; it is a separate fictional example. You're in a car somewhere getting money from an ATM. A scary guy approaches you and demands money. You have three choices:

-Drive off; doing so would allow the scary guy to obtain up to $500 from your account, and you'd lose the card. Your way is clear to drive off, he can't stop you etc.

-Ignore him and complete the transaction.

-Show your gun in hopes he would run away.

Which would you choose to do?

[jfields 0]

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If guns take innocent lives

I didn't directly say that. Civilians with guns take innocent lives, in alarming numbers.

I've used firearms, in the military. I'm not in the "any gun is a bad thing" camp. Guns in untrained and/or irresponsible hands are the problem.

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And the only force that can neutralize their will is an equal force.

Untrue. Common sense and using your brain is probably more effective in most circumstances.

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I'd like to ask this question: should cops stop carrying guns?

Nope.

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Maybe stand down the SWAT Teams, with their snipers and machine guns.

Is the average firearm owner as trained in the use of firearms, safety of firearms and threat assessment as the members of a SWAT team? Nope. Have they been screened as carefully at a SWAT member before having a weapon placed in their hands? Nope. Have they been forced to demonstrate any level of responsibility or ethics? Nope. You are comparing apples and oranges, and you know it.

[livendive 8]

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Its always the liberals that arm-chair quarterback stuff they don't have any clue about.

That's true. No right-wing guy has ever second-guessed a woman's choice to have an abortion.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[lawrocket 3]

No, I am not comparing apples with oranges.

I am demonstrating a direct link between this thought: Guns save lives and promote the general safety of society.

You didn't directly say that guns take innocent lives? If not directly stating it, you sure as hell implied it. And yes, civilians with guns take lives in alarming numbers.

Unfortunately, these guns take lives of people who have been stripped of the very ability to defend themselves. Some perp walks up to me in the dtreet with a gun, I better play ball under his rules. Maybe he'll shoot me even if I do what he says.

Well, I think it'd promote the saving of my innocent life to let this perp know that he isn't getting away with it too easily. Cops respond with deadly force to deadly force.

This is NOT apples and oranges. I am not talking about training or any of the other side issues here. I am talking about clear examples of the benefits of an armed society. I am speaking of the benefits of actually allowing the innocent, good and upright citizens to defend themselves, instead of having other citizens call 911 for them, and wait for 12 minutes for a response.

Guns in irresponsible hands are the problem. The guns in irresponsible hands kill innocent people.

I take great issue with your intimation that society is irresponsible. I would suggest that you state outright to Aggie that he is irresponsible and that he will kill innocent people with his gun.

Unless you are willing to make that statement, your arguments are without merit. For society is filled with AggieDaves, who have their weapons and can handle them responsibly.

To take these weapons out of their hands because a small minority of people cannot be trusted is to do disservice to Dave, to yourself and to society.

While you are at it, make sure to ban all parachutes, except for military use. They kill a lot of people every year who use them irresponsibly. Sure, their proper packing, use, deployment and control prevents thousands of craters every year from occurring. And I know that thousands have never been killed under perfectly good canopy.

But we know, through experience, that people will be irresponsible with these things, and innocent people will die. Low hook turns, failure to flare, canopy collisions, etc. The death of innocents.

That is unacceptable, and there is no social utility to the act. Apply your logic to canopies, and tell me your thoughts.

of course, the military should be allowed to use them. They are trained and well-supervised in what they do.

No, this is not apples and oranges. This is "exchange 'guns' for 'canopies'" and then tell me how ludicrous your argument is.

My wife is hotter than your wife.