never pull low......unless you are
juanesky 0
Quote
And the "racist because of hating terrorists" (not you Hummusx) is taking liberties with threads. Using epithets that are commonly seen as bigoted (towelhead) and ascribing your own meaning to it ("everyone else uses it for Indians/Pakistanis/Arabs, but I'm using it for Islamic terrorists") is kind of like me saying that prison isn't so bad, because I define prison as a high-paying job that I'm not too fond of.
So you can call me racist by your definitions, yet I do not mention of color, creed, race....just a terrorist, you go changing the definition of "terrorist" to fit your shoe, and your friends can call me a Nazi Simpathyzer, and yet this does not offend you...well we should all be in the liberty to do the same thing shouldn't we?
If you are in Prison is probably for some wrong doing in your part, but if you are innocent and are in prison is a different issue.
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
juanesky 0
That was funny....
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
billvon 3,070
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>It must cost a fortune to reprint those dictionaries everyday.
Our goverment has no problem at all. "Freedom fighter" one day is "terrorist" the next. "Ally" becomes "enemy." (Bonus question - were the Russians our allies or enemies in WWI? WWII? the Cold War?)
Our goverment has no problem at all. "Freedom fighter" one day is "terrorist" the next. "Ally" becomes "enemy." (Bonus question - were the Russians our allies or enemies in WWI? WWII? the Cold War?)
mikkey 0
QuoteThe UN is largely 'worthless' already, as a couple other people have already stated. They have no real power of their own. Nor do I want them to have much more than they do. It's difficult enough dealing with the US Government wihout having to worry about International Courts and all that crap. And yes, the US funds the UN almost by itself.
The amount of backslapping amongst the people with the "gun slinging" over zealous so-called "patriotic views" is interesting.
Seems like bashing the UN and any other international institution is part of the membership ticket. I will dare to question how much you guys really know about the history and achievements of the UN and other international institutions. Just a couple of points:
The UN has done some very important successful work through UNICEF and other organizations like the WHO. They have done enormous work to fight diseases, help children, development programs etc. You might not always hear about it but the UN is actually a very important organization.
Even many peace keeping or peace enforcement missions have been very successful and prevented wars or enabled the ending long standing conflicts.
Same goes for other many other international organizations, from the World Bank to the International War Crimes Tribunal. While working with and through international organizations can be difficult and frustrating, it is the best solution in most cases in the long run.
The notion by many of the posters that the US should do everything on its own, be exempt from international law and always “knows” better, is both arrogant and encourages the view of the “ugly” American. It will not make you friends and it will work into the hand of those people we are supposed to fight .
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
bill2 0
Below is a speech by a federal judge who was in Iraq just a short time ago. It's worth reading. I personally think we did a good thing by going into Iraq. Much of the opposition to us in the UN came from people who had economic (France & Russia)and military reasons (Russia)for doing so, not moral. The post below is from http://globalspecops.com/view.html
__________________________________
PREFACE
Last Wednesday night, I attended a lecture by Judge Don Walters,
a federal judge from Shreveport, LA., who was asked to serve as
part of a 12 man team in Iraq to evaluate their justice system.
It was most interesting, and afterwards, I asked if he had a
book or a recording of any of his lectures. Since he did not,
he was generous enough to give me his notes from the evening.
For those of you interested, I will give you a slightly abridged
version of his lecture which I found difficult to cut down due to
its wealth of information.
THE LECTURE:
I really am not into public speaking as I am sure you are about
to find out. But my adventures in Iraq taught me something that
I would very much like to share with you. I have been fortunate
over the past 5 or 6 years to get to such exotic places as Bosnia,
Jakarta, Indonesia, and Morocco. But, Iraq is my swan song. First,
I am too old for such adventures, and second, Charlotte (my wife)
won't let me. In mid-April, I got a call from DoJ asking if I
would be willing to go to Iraq for up to 3 months to evaluate the
justice system and make recommendations. When I went home,
Charlotte said without a pause, "how could I possibly tell you, no?"
Let me begin with a disclaimer, I was in Iraq for fewer than 40 days,
I was in Baghdad for a little over three weeks and in the three
provinces of the far south for two weeks. I am limited in what I saw
and heard. Needless to say, the opinions are my own. I want to make
it clear that, initially, I vehemently opposed the war.
The team of 12 that went to Iraq was to access the judiciary and to
make recommendations for the future. We were sent too soon and without
sufficient planning and forethought. Accordingly we were forced to
play our part by ear. Ultimately, we were successful. No thanks to
the civil authorities in Washington or Iraq.
We were divided into 4 teams. We were the southern team: Mike Farhang,
an AUSA from Los Angeles, Harvard Summa Undergraduate, Harvard Law
Review, Linguist, 5 languages including Arabic; Rich Coughlin, Federal
Public Defender from New Jersey, who abandoned his wife and 23 month
old daughter to volunteer for this; and me. We were accompanied by an
interpreter and protected by what I called our "minders," four Iraqis
well-armed with 9mm hand guns and AK47's.
During the first two weeks, we talked to a few hundred Iraqis and
interviewed about 60 judges. Our help came from our Danish colleagues
and the First Armored Division (UK), not from the civil authorities -
OPCA, Office of the Provisional Coalition Authority,
(formerly ORHA), Ambassador Brenner's group.
Despite my initial opposition to the war, I am now convinced, whether
we find any weapons of mass destruction or prove Saddam sheltered and
financed terrorists, absolutely, we should have overthrown the Baathists,
indeed, we should have done it sooner.
What changed my mind?
When we left mid June, 57 mass graves had been found, one with the bodies
of 1200 children. There have been credible reports of murder, brutality
and torture of hundreds of thousands of ordinary Iraqi citizens. There is
poverty on a monumental scale and fear on a larger one. That fear is
still palpable.
I have seen the machines and places of torture. I will tell you one story
told to me by the Chief of Pediatrics at the Medical College in Basra. It
was one of the most shocking to me, but I heard worse. One of Saddam's
security agents was sent to question a Shiite in his home. The
interrogation took place in the living room in the presence of the man's
wife, who held their three month old child. A question was asked and the
thug did not like the answer; he asked it again, same answer. He grabbed
the baby from its mother and plucked its eye out. And then repeated his
question. Worse things happened with the knowledge, indeed with the
participation, of Saddam, his family and the Baathist regime.
Thousands suffered while we were messing about with France and Russia and
Germany and the UN. Every one of them knew what was going on there, but
France and the UN were making millions administering the food for oil
program. We cannot, I know, remake the world, nor do I believe we should.
We cannot stamp out evil, I know. But this time we were morally right
and our economic and strategic interests were involved. I submit that just
because we can't do everything doesn't mean that we should do nothing.
We must have the moral courage to see this through, to do whatever it
takes to secure responsible government for the Iraqi people. Having
decided to topple Saddam, we cannot abandon those who trust us. I fear we
will quit as the horrors of war come into our living rooms. Look at the
stories you are getting from the media today. The steady drip, drip, drip
of bad news may destroy our will to fulfill the obligations we have assumed.
WE ARE NOT GETTING THE WHOLE TRUTH FROM THE NEWS MEDIA. The news you watch,
listen to and read is highly selective. Good news doesn't sell. 90% of the
damage you see on tv was caused by Iraqis, not by US. All the damage you
see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries,
pipelines and water supplies, as well as shops, museums, and semi-public
buildings (like hotels) was caused either by the Iraqi army in its death
throes or Iraqi civilians looting and rioting.
The day after the war was over, there was nearly 0 power being generated
in Iraq. 45 days later, 1/3 of the total national potential of 8000 MW is
up and running. Downed power lines are being repaired and were about 70%
complete when I left. There is water purification where little or none
existed before...this time to everyone. Oil is 95% of the Iraqi GNP. In
order for Iraq to survive, it must sell oil. All the damage to the oil
fields was done by the Iraqi army or looters. The 14 story office building
of the Southern Iraq Oil Company in Basra was torched by Baathist,
destroying all of the books, records and computers of the company. Today,
the refinery at Bayji is at 75% of capacity. The crude pipeline between
Kirkuk and Bayji has been repaired, though the Baathist keep trying to
disrupt it. If we are doing all this for the people, why are they shooting
us? The general population isn't. By my sample, 90% are glad we came and
the majority doesn't want us to leave for some time to come, but there are
still plenty of bad guys, the Baathists who lived well under Saddam. The
thugs of the old regime still hope to return to power, and there are plenty
of them, mostly located in Sunni areas. Then too, Saddam, in the Ramadan
amnesty, let every murderer, butcher, rapist and violent criminal loose on
his own people. There are interests, including organized crime, with a
desire for anarchy and profit. There are disruptive forces from Saudi Arabia,
Iran and Syria. We saw poverty on a scale that I have never witnessed except
in pictures of Haiti. I saw one little girl: she was slender, very pretty,
about 5 or 6 years old, in a tattered dress with a broad red hem, part of
which was torn and dragging in the dirt. She would touch her heart and make
hungry gestures. She was duplicated a thousand times during the journey.
The poverty in Iraq is a sharp contrast to the lives of Saddam and his sons.
Saddam alone, not counting Ouday and Qusay and the leading Baathists, had 43
palaces. We are using several for civilian government. The one where OPCA is
located is the main republican palace occupying over 2000 acres. It is a
monument to narcissism, four 25 foot tall heads of Saddam decorate the front
of the palace, and his portraits and statues are everywhere. We went to a
second palace by the airport. It is surrounded by a lake which was created by
diverting the Euphrates water which limited agricultural irrigation downstream.
His palace in Basra was used by him only once I am told. Basra functions fairly
well except for the power. There are 6 lines into the city, but it does not
have a standard power grid. Saddam used power and other essentials as a method
of punishing a city of 3 million! He would cut power for days to punish them.
When I tell you the temperatures there, you will understand how bad that was.
I am told that in high summer, it will hit 155 degrees, even 160! He has made
no investments in this area which is overwhelmingly Shiite. He has few friends
there. Consequently, it is easier for the Brits to govern, unlike Baghdad. And
they are doing a good job of it.They are doing it at the moment by using pre-
war personnel, perhaps contrary to Brenner's de-Baathification order. The
problem with Brenner's policy is that it removes almost all of the people who
ran the country. The Brits have been pragmatic: they have largely left the
judges and police in place and are removing them as they see the need and they
are able to train and replace the bad ones. That was our problem in Haiti, we
trained a police force but did not put the judiciary in place so that the jails
just filled up and then overcrowding forced criminals out. And the Haitian
police have largely quit. (Ouday had a solution to overcrowding, when he
received a complaint of overcrowding, he went to the prison and personally shot
every 3rd prisoner.) We want to keep Iraq a secular state, and that will present
some difficulties as there is no real concept of separation of church and state
in Islam. Attaturk was a true revolutionary where this was concerned. The tribal
and sahria (religious) courts are functioning, and if we don't get a move on,
they will replace the civil and criminal courts. I find it difficult to explain
how differently they think. I remember telling Mike, "I don't think we are on
the same page with this fellow." Mike said, "Don, I am not sure we are in the
same library." For a large percentage of the Iraqi people, and they are most
adamant, family and tribe are everything, religion and state are one and the
same. That they don't understand us is our biggest problem in the middle east.
They perceive our way of life as a threat to theirs,...and it is. They fear
the modern world is about to run over them, destroying family life as they know
it, educating and freeing their women, forbidding honor killing...coca colas,
jeans, lack of parental respect and respect for the old ways and religion. And
to defend their way of life and their religion, they will die with the same
fervor with which the Christians marched to the lions. In their fear of western
life, some will fight and kill us; but I remain convinced that the majority want
a secular society and the best that the west has to offer. We are not hated by
everyone. Of the hundreds I talked to, the overwhelming majority thanked us for
being there. Hundreds of adults and children on the roads waved and smiled as
we passed by. We went to the law school with about 300 students, about ten of
whom were female. There we were, three Americans and they wanted us to fix
their school and they thought we could. They thought Americans could do anything.
They were like children expecting the genie from the bottle to immediately
gratify their needs. The law students were the finest example of hope that I
encountered. They told me that the future was theirs and that they needed and
wanted our help. I believe we should be paying more attention and giving greater
effort to restoring higher education. These law students are the immediate future.
When we met with them a week later, they had formed a protective association, a
bus for transportation, found a disused grammar school for classes, and got their
assistant dean to round up some professors who were teaching them. Still they
need help and I am trying to get some help for them from our law schools. LSU has
refused, Seton Hall and Rutgers have promised to help; I have not contacted Tulane,
Loyola or Southern yet. Upon returning to Baghdad, I went to the Ministry of
Justice to review the situation in the south. I took advantage of the situation
and said the following: "I have read a little of your history. I know you are a
proud people who have risen from the ashes in the past, so I must tell you that I
am saddened and disappointed. I have talked to hundreds of you over the past
five weeks, almost everyone educated and privileged. What I have heard is what you
want from us, how the Americans have to fix this and give you money and equipment,
protect you from you own. The only adults planning on the future were those law
students in Basra who had lost everything - their books, their desks, their
records, their school. And they were doing something about it on their own. You
need to do some of these things for yourselves. If you are depending on us to do
everything, you are going to be sadly disappointed." I got a few nods from the
judges, but the translator said to me: "Thank you. I have been waiting for someone
to tell them that."
Our soldiers, God love them and keep them; they smiled every time I got a chance
to talk to them. They want to come home, but I did not hear one word of complaint
nor a question as to why they were there. This is boring, HOT, dirty, and
dangerous work. They stand in 120 plus degrees in full body armor. They are amazing.
Their entertainment was largely self-generated; boredom doesn't stop when they
stand down. Write a letter, send a note or email; send a book, cd, tape, or
magazine; do something.
Thank you.
Submitted by:
Barbara Bessent
__________________________________
PREFACE
Last Wednesday night, I attended a lecture by Judge Don Walters,
a federal judge from Shreveport, LA., who was asked to serve as
part of a 12 man team in Iraq to evaluate their justice system.
It was most interesting, and afterwards, I asked if he had a
book or a recording of any of his lectures. Since he did not,
he was generous enough to give me his notes from the evening.
For those of you interested, I will give you a slightly abridged
version of his lecture which I found difficult to cut down due to
its wealth of information.
THE LECTURE:
I really am not into public speaking as I am sure you are about
to find out. But my adventures in Iraq taught me something that
I would very much like to share with you. I have been fortunate
over the past 5 or 6 years to get to such exotic places as Bosnia,
Jakarta, Indonesia, and Morocco. But, Iraq is my swan song. First,
I am too old for such adventures, and second, Charlotte (my wife)
won't let me. In mid-April, I got a call from DoJ asking if I
would be willing to go to Iraq for up to 3 months to evaluate the
justice system and make recommendations. When I went home,
Charlotte said without a pause, "how could I possibly tell you, no?"
Let me begin with a disclaimer, I was in Iraq for fewer than 40 days,
I was in Baghdad for a little over three weeks and in the three
provinces of the far south for two weeks. I am limited in what I saw
and heard. Needless to say, the opinions are my own. I want to make
it clear that, initially, I vehemently opposed the war.
The team of 12 that went to Iraq was to access the judiciary and to
make recommendations for the future. We were sent too soon and without
sufficient planning and forethought. Accordingly we were forced to
play our part by ear. Ultimately, we were successful. No thanks to
the civil authorities in Washington or Iraq.
We were divided into 4 teams. We were the southern team: Mike Farhang,
an AUSA from Los Angeles, Harvard Summa Undergraduate, Harvard Law
Review, Linguist, 5 languages including Arabic; Rich Coughlin, Federal
Public Defender from New Jersey, who abandoned his wife and 23 month
old daughter to volunteer for this; and me. We were accompanied by an
interpreter and protected by what I called our "minders," four Iraqis
well-armed with 9mm hand guns and AK47's.
During the first two weeks, we talked to a few hundred Iraqis and
interviewed about 60 judges. Our help came from our Danish colleagues
and the First Armored Division (UK), not from the civil authorities -
OPCA, Office of the Provisional Coalition Authority,
(formerly ORHA), Ambassador Brenner's group.
Despite my initial opposition to the war, I am now convinced, whether
we find any weapons of mass destruction or prove Saddam sheltered and
financed terrorists, absolutely, we should have overthrown the Baathists,
indeed, we should have done it sooner.
What changed my mind?
When we left mid June, 57 mass graves had been found, one with the bodies
of 1200 children. There have been credible reports of murder, brutality
and torture of hundreds of thousands of ordinary Iraqi citizens. There is
poverty on a monumental scale and fear on a larger one. That fear is
still palpable.
I have seen the machines and places of torture. I will tell you one story
told to me by the Chief of Pediatrics at the Medical College in Basra. It
was one of the most shocking to me, but I heard worse. One of Saddam's
security agents was sent to question a Shiite in his home. The
interrogation took place in the living room in the presence of the man's
wife, who held their three month old child. A question was asked and the
thug did not like the answer; he asked it again, same answer. He grabbed
the baby from its mother and plucked its eye out. And then repeated his
question. Worse things happened with the knowledge, indeed with the
participation, of Saddam, his family and the Baathist regime.
Thousands suffered while we were messing about with France and Russia and
Germany and the UN. Every one of them knew what was going on there, but
France and the UN were making millions administering the food for oil
program. We cannot, I know, remake the world, nor do I believe we should.
We cannot stamp out evil, I know. But this time we were morally right
and our economic and strategic interests were involved. I submit that just
because we can't do everything doesn't mean that we should do nothing.
We must have the moral courage to see this through, to do whatever it
takes to secure responsible government for the Iraqi people. Having
decided to topple Saddam, we cannot abandon those who trust us. I fear we
will quit as the horrors of war come into our living rooms. Look at the
stories you are getting from the media today. The steady drip, drip, drip
of bad news may destroy our will to fulfill the obligations we have assumed.
WE ARE NOT GETTING THE WHOLE TRUTH FROM THE NEWS MEDIA. The news you watch,
listen to and read is highly selective. Good news doesn't sell. 90% of the
damage you see on tv was caused by Iraqis, not by US. All the damage you
see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries,
pipelines and water supplies, as well as shops, museums, and semi-public
buildings (like hotels) was caused either by the Iraqi army in its death
throes or Iraqi civilians looting and rioting.
The day after the war was over, there was nearly 0 power being generated
in Iraq. 45 days later, 1/3 of the total national potential of 8000 MW is
up and running. Downed power lines are being repaired and were about 70%
complete when I left. There is water purification where little or none
existed before...this time to everyone. Oil is 95% of the Iraqi GNP. In
order for Iraq to survive, it must sell oil. All the damage to the oil
fields was done by the Iraqi army or looters. The 14 story office building
of the Southern Iraq Oil Company in Basra was torched by Baathist,
destroying all of the books, records and computers of the company. Today,
the refinery at Bayji is at 75% of capacity. The crude pipeline between
Kirkuk and Bayji has been repaired, though the Baathist keep trying to
disrupt it. If we are doing all this for the people, why are they shooting
us? The general population isn't. By my sample, 90% are glad we came and
the majority doesn't want us to leave for some time to come, but there are
still plenty of bad guys, the Baathists who lived well under Saddam. The
thugs of the old regime still hope to return to power, and there are plenty
of them, mostly located in Sunni areas. Then too, Saddam, in the Ramadan
amnesty, let every murderer, butcher, rapist and violent criminal loose on
his own people. There are interests, including organized crime, with a
desire for anarchy and profit. There are disruptive forces from Saudi Arabia,
Iran and Syria. We saw poverty on a scale that I have never witnessed except
in pictures of Haiti. I saw one little girl: she was slender, very pretty,
about 5 or 6 years old, in a tattered dress with a broad red hem, part of
which was torn and dragging in the dirt. She would touch her heart and make
hungry gestures. She was duplicated a thousand times during the journey.
The poverty in Iraq is a sharp contrast to the lives of Saddam and his sons.
Saddam alone, not counting Ouday and Qusay and the leading Baathists, had 43
palaces. We are using several for civilian government. The one where OPCA is
located is the main republican palace occupying over 2000 acres. It is a
monument to narcissism, four 25 foot tall heads of Saddam decorate the front
of the palace, and his portraits and statues are everywhere. We went to a
second palace by the airport. It is surrounded by a lake which was created by
diverting the Euphrates water which limited agricultural irrigation downstream.
His palace in Basra was used by him only once I am told. Basra functions fairly
well except for the power. There are 6 lines into the city, but it does not
have a standard power grid. Saddam used power and other essentials as a method
of punishing a city of 3 million! He would cut power for days to punish them.
When I tell you the temperatures there, you will understand how bad that was.
I am told that in high summer, it will hit 155 degrees, even 160! He has made
no investments in this area which is overwhelmingly Shiite. He has few friends
there. Consequently, it is easier for the Brits to govern, unlike Baghdad. And
they are doing a good job of it.They are doing it at the moment by using pre-
war personnel, perhaps contrary to Brenner's de-Baathification order. The
problem with Brenner's policy is that it removes almost all of the people who
ran the country. The Brits have been pragmatic: they have largely left the
judges and police in place and are removing them as they see the need and they
are able to train and replace the bad ones. That was our problem in Haiti, we
trained a police force but did not put the judiciary in place so that the jails
just filled up and then overcrowding forced criminals out. And the Haitian
police have largely quit. (Ouday had a solution to overcrowding, when he
received a complaint of overcrowding, he went to the prison and personally shot
every 3rd prisoner.) We want to keep Iraq a secular state, and that will present
some difficulties as there is no real concept of separation of church and state
in Islam. Attaturk was a true revolutionary where this was concerned. The tribal
and sahria (religious) courts are functioning, and if we don't get a move on,
they will replace the civil and criminal courts. I find it difficult to explain
how differently they think. I remember telling Mike, "I don't think we are on
the same page with this fellow." Mike said, "Don, I am not sure we are in the
same library." For a large percentage of the Iraqi people, and they are most
adamant, family and tribe are everything, religion and state are one and the
same. That they don't understand us is our biggest problem in the middle east.
They perceive our way of life as a threat to theirs,...and it is. They fear
the modern world is about to run over them, destroying family life as they know
it, educating and freeing their women, forbidding honor killing...coca colas,
jeans, lack of parental respect and respect for the old ways and religion. And
to defend their way of life and their religion, they will die with the same
fervor with which the Christians marched to the lions. In their fear of western
life, some will fight and kill us; but I remain convinced that the majority want
a secular society and the best that the west has to offer. We are not hated by
everyone. Of the hundreds I talked to, the overwhelming majority thanked us for
being there. Hundreds of adults and children on the roads waved and smiled as
we passed by. We went to the law school with about 300 students, about ten of
whom were female. There we were, three Americans and they wanted us to fix
their school and they thought we could. They thought Americans could do anything.
They were like children expecting the genie from the bottle to immediately
gratify their needs. The law students were the finest example of hope that I
encountered. They told me that the future was theirs and that they needed and
wanted our help. I believe we should be paying more attention and giving greater
effort to restoring higher education. These law students are the immediate future.
When we met with them a week later, they had formed a protective association, a
bus for transportation, found a disused grammar school for classes, and got their
assistant dean to round up some professors who were teaching them. Still they
need help and I am trying to get some help for them from our law schools. LSU has
refused, Seton Hall and Rutgers have promised to help; I have not contacted Tulane,
Loyola or Southern yet. Upon returning to Baghdad, I went to the Ministry of
Justice to review the situation in the south. I took advantage of the situation
and said the following: "I have read a little of your history. I know you are a
proud people who have risen from the ashes in the past, so I must tell you that I
am saddened and disappointed. I have talked to hundreds of you over the past
five weeks, almost everyone educated and privileged. What I have heard is what you
want from us, how the Americans have to fix this and give you money and equipment,
protect you from you own. The only adults planning on the future were those law
students in Basra who had lost everything - their books, their desks, their
records, their school. And they were doing something about it on their own. You
need to do some of these things for yourselves. If you are depending on us to do
everything, you are going to be sadly disappointed." I got a few nods from the
judges, but the translator said to me: "Thank you. I have been waiting for someone
to tell them that."
Our soldiers, God love them and keep them; they smiled every time I got a chance
to talk to them. They want to come home, but I did not hear one word of complaint
nor a question as to why they were there. This is boring, HOT, dirty, and
dangerous work. They stand in 120 plus degrees in full body armor. They are amazing.
Their entertainment was largely self-generated; boredom doesn't stop when they
stand down. Write a letter, send a note or email; send a book, cd, tape, or
magazine; do something.
Thank you.
Submitted by:
Barbara Bessent
Quote>It must cost a fortune to reprint those dictionaries everyday.
Our goverment has no problem at all. "Freedom fighter" one day is "terrorist" the next. "Ally" becomes "enemy." (Bonus question - were the Russians our allies or enemies in WWI? WWII? the Cold War?)
I don't think that the meaning of the words change, just our relationships.
never pull low......unless you are
billvon 3,070
>I don't think that the meaning of the words change, just our
>relationships.
Good point. I hope we can plan for the future accordingly.
>relationships.
Good point. I hope we can plan for the future accordingly.
billvon 3,070
>The war in Afghanistan, liberation and procurement of democracy over there . . .
Afghanistan is a bloody mess right now. The warlords are in charge in the outlying provinces, and civil rights violations are going as strong as they ever were. The Taliban is returning. In Kabul, the government we installed isn't able to do much to stop them. From Reuters, today:
---------------------
Violence has plagued southern Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban in 2001 and has worsened markedly in recent weeks.
Well over 200 people have been killed in the past six weeks. Most have been Taliban guerrillas, but the casualties have included Afghan soldiers and police, civilians and aid workers.
----------------------
I don't think the dead people feel very liberated.
>at least we know that there are not more killings in soccer fields over there.
Think again. There are _hundreds_ of killings going on under American rule. I don't know if they shot them in soccer fields, but I don't think that's a significant detail. The idea that we brought peace and democracy to Afghanistan is nonsense.
>News about WMD Just to prove that still they are trying to detail all
>the findings.
Actually, they gave up. They are postponing a report on Iraqi WMD's indefinitely because they couldn't find any, per the London Times.
>The sad part is that no one is listening to the claims of all those
> people that actually get to be living on these places, who want
> freedom, and do not want their current leaders on power, and have
> kissed and embraced the troops as soon as they got to their home
> lands.
Not any more. From the UK Telegraph, Apr 30:
--------------------------------
American soldiers shot dead up to 13 Iraqis, including children, demonstrating at a rally yesterday. The incident, at the town of Falouja, about 30 miles west of Baghdad, was the most serious since the US army began to restore order in Iraq. Soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division hastily sealed off their positions with razor wire while helicopters circled overhead for much of the day. Small crowds gathered outside a school the Americans were using as a base.
Americans keep razor wire between themselves and Iraqis in Falouja after yesterday's shooting
"There is no God but Allah, and America is the enemy of Allah," chanted one group.
Angry local residents crowded around the shot-up remains of a taxi belonging to a family who live across the road from the school entrance. The owner, Osama Salah, had bundled his brother, injured in the leg, in the car to take him to hospital. But the car came under a hail of American fire, wounding the driver and killing a third brother.
Mohamed Abdallah, a retired accountant, said: "We don't want Saddam and we don't want Bush. The Americans have done their job and they must go."
Afghanistan is a bloody mess right now. The warlords are in charge in the outlying provinces, and civil rights violations are going as strong as they ever were. The Taliban is returning. In Kabul, the government we installed isn't able to do much to stop them. From Reuters, today:
---------------------
Violence has plagued southern Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban in 2001 and has worsened markedly in recent weeks.
Well over 200 people have been killed in the past six weeks. Most have been Taliban guerrillas, but the casualties have included Afghan soldiers and police, civilians and aid workers.
----------------------
I don't think the dead people feel very liberated.
>at least we know that there are not more killings in soccer fields over there.
Think again. There are _hundreds_ of killings going on under American rule. I don't know if they shot them in soccer fields, but I don't think that's a significant detail. The idea that we brought peace and democracy to Afghanistan is nonsense.
>News about WMD Just to prove that still they are trying to detail all
>the findings.
Actually, they gave up. They are postponing a report on Iraqi WMD's indefinitely because they couldn't find any, per the London Times.
>The sad part is that no one is listening to the claims of all those
> people that actually get to be living on these places, who want
> freedom, and do not want their current leaders on power, and have
> kissed and embraced the troops as soon as they got to their home
> lands.
Not any more. From the UK Telegraph, Apr 30:
--------------------------------
American soldiers shot dead up to 13 Iraqis, including children, demonstrating at a rally yesterday. The incident, at the town of Falouja, about 30 miles west of Baghdad, was the most serious since the US army began to restore order in Iraq. Soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division hastily sealed off their positions with razor wire while helicopters circled overhead for much of the day. Small crowds gathered outside a school the Americans were using as a base.
Americans keep razor wire between themselves and Iraqis in Falouja after yesterday's shooting
"There is no God but Allah, and America is the enemy of Allah," chanted one group.
Angry local residents crowded around the shot-up remains of a taxi belonging to a family who live across the road from the school entrance. The owner, Osama Salah, had bundled his brother, injured in the leg, in the car to take him to hospital. But the car came under a hail of American fire, wounding the driver and killing a third brother.
Mohamed Abdallah, a retired accountant, said: "We don't want Saddam and we don't want Bush. The Americans have done their job and they must go."
juanesky 0
Quote>Afghanistan is a bloody mess right now. The warlords are in charge in the outlying provinces, and civil rights violations are going as strong as they ever were. The Taliban is returning. In Kabul, the government we installed isn't able to do much to stop them. From Reuters, today:
---------------------
Violence has plagued southern Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban in 2001 and has worsened markedly in recent weeks.
Well over 200 people have been killed in the past six weeks. Most have been Taliban guerrillas, but the casualties have included Afghan soldiers and police, civilians and aid workers.
----------------------
I don't think the dead people feel very liberated.
-----------------------------------------------------
Indeed there was no violence at all before the fall of Taliban. And if most of those are Talibans, then they are in fact trying to get back in power so no sense in liberating them. Your Reuters article does not mention who is doing what....I would assume (and most of the news state so) that is the Taliban trying to attack.
Quote
Think again. There are _hundreds_ of killings going on under American rule. I don't know if they shot them in soccer fields, but I don't think that's a significant detail. The idea that we brought peace and democracy to Afghanistan is nonsense.
They will keep on happening. It is sad, and unfortunate, but if you are implying that most of these attacks UN site, the public services, and Iraqi police are made by those who are happy the regime came to an end (their vast majority), then we could assume that these people are masochists.
QuoteActually, they gave up. They are postponing a report on Iraqi WMD's indefinitely because they couldn't find any, per the London Times.
News that does not show the effort to have stopped. Still going. Some nuclear material was looted. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, subduing a regime that time and time again have proven murderous and capable of using the weapons been searched.
Quote
Not any more. From the UK Telegraph, Apr 30:
--------------------------------
American soldiers shot dead up to 13 Iraqis, including children, demonstrating at a rally yesterday. The incident, at the town of Falouja, about 30 miles west of Baghdad, was the most serious since the US army began to restore order in Iraq. Soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division hastily sealed off their positions with razor wire while helicopters circled overhead for much of the day. Small crowds gathered outside a school the Americans were using as a base.
Bill, I think this report, is still one day before the official May 1 date for the cease of combat, just one day before Saddam's head was toppled in a good show of how mad the Iraqis were about the American troops.
What do you think about the article on post #62 on this thread, which is months after this one?
Also, I find it interesting that since it has been commented that US is for oil, they would allow Iraqi officials go to an Opec summit. Yes, they are definitely very oppressed by the US...
Opec News
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
mikkey 0
The way people see things depends on the way they are "fed" the news. I found this article from AFP today. Just shows there are always 2 sides to the same story:
---------------------------------------------------------
CNN star reporter Christiane Amanpour has stirred a media hornets' nest by claiming US television networks, including CNN, were "intimidated" by the Bush administration in their coverage of the war in Iraq.
"I think the press was muzzled and I think the press self-muzzled," Amanpour told former Vanity Fair editor, Tina Brown, on her CNBC talkshow.
"I'm sorry to say that, but certainly television - and perhaps to a certain extent my station - was intimidated by the administration and its foot soldiers at Fox News," she said, referring to the conservative, Rupert Murdoch-owned network that has become CNN's main cable news rival.
"And it did, in fact, put a climate of fear and self-censorship in terms of the kind of broadcast work we did," Amanpour said.
"Christiane is a valued member of the team and one of the world's foremost journalists," Walton said in a statement. "However her comments do not reflect the reality of our coverage and I do not agree with her about this."
A Fox News spokeswoman was quoted as saying: "It's better to be viewed as a foot soldier for Bush than a spokeswoman for al-Qaeda."
Asked by Brown if there had been any story during the war that she had been unable to report, Amanpour said: "It's not a question of couldn't do it, it's a question of tone. It's a question of being rigorous. It's a question of really asking the questions.
"All of the entire body politic in my view -- whether it's the administration, the intelligence, the journalists, whoever -- did not ask enough questions, for instance, about weapons of mass destruction. I mean, it looks like this was disinformation at the highest levels," she said.
- AFP
---------------------------------------------------------
CNN star reporter Christiane Amanpour has stirred a media hornets' nest by claiming US television networks, including CNN, were "intimidated" by the Bush administration in their coverage of the war in Iraq.
"I think the press was muzzled and I think the press self-muzzled," Amanpour told former Vanity Fair editor, Tina Brown, on her CNBC talkshow.
"I'm sorry to say that, but certainly television - and perhaps to a certain extent my station - was intimidated by the administration and its foot soldiers at Fox News," she said, referring to the conservative, Rupert Murdoch-owned network that has become CNN's main cable news rival.
"And it did, in fact, put a climate of fear and self-censorship in terms of the kind of broadcast work we did," Amanpour said.
"Christiane is a valued member of the team and one of the world's foremost journalists," Walton said in a statement. "However her comments do not reflect the reality of our coverage and I do not agree with her about this."
A Fox News spokeswoman was quoted as saying: "It's better to be viewed as a foot soldier for Bush than a spokeswoman for al-Qaeda."
Asked by Brown if there had been any story during the war that she had been unable to report, Amanpour said: "It's not a question of couldn't do it, it's a question of tone. It's a question of being rigorous. It's a question of really asking the questions.
"All of the entire body politic in my view -- whether it's the administration, the intelligence, the journalists, whoever -- did not ask enough questions, for instance, about weapons of mass destruction. I mean, it looks like this was disinformation at the highest levels," she said.
- AFP
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
billvon 3,070
>Indeed there was no violence at all before the fall of Taliban.
Oh, there was plenty of violence. We didn't start the violence there, but claims of how we have brought peace and democracy to Afghanistan are simply false. We have a long way to go.
>They will keep on happening. It is sad, and unfortunate, but if you
> are implying that most of these attacks UN site, the public services,
> and Iraqi police are made by those who are happy the regime came
> to an end (their vast majority) . . . .
For a great many people, the regime of the warlords has not come to an end. They are just as oppressed as they ever were.
We didn't invade Afghanistan to liberate the people or bring democracy there or any other feel-good politically correct reason. We went there to get Bin Laden; the Taliban was simply in the way. We still don't have him, and the quagmire is getting deeper. We have two choices, neither of which is good:
-Send 250,000 troops to occupy and pacify the country, and spend hundreds of billions modernizing the country and setting up a democratic government (with enough military to remain in power.) Result - a lot of American deaths from guerillas and a lot of money and time spent there, but a government that will last a few years.
-Pull out now. Result - the Taliban returns.
Neither is a very good option. The option to just leave 10,000 troops there and hope they can cover a country the size of Texas isn't really going to work. It didn't work over the past two years; won't work in the next two.
Oh, there was plenty of violence. We didn't start the violence there, but claims of how we have brought peace and democracy to Afghanistan are simply false. We have a long way to go.
>They will keep on happening. It is sad, and unfortunate, but if you
> are implying that most of these attacks UN site, the public services,
> and Iraqi police are made by those who are happy the regime came
> to an end (their vast majority) . . . .
For a great many people, the regime of the warlords has not come to an end. They are just as oppressed as they ever were.
We didn't invade Afghanistan to liberate the people or bring democracy there or any other feel-good politically correct reason. We went there to get Bin Laden; the Taliban was simply in the way. We still don't have him, and the quagmire is getting deeper. We have two choices, neither of which is good:
-Send 250,000 troops to occupy and pacify the country, and spend hundreds of billions modernizing the country and setting up a democratic government (with enough military to remain in power.) Result - a lot of American deaths from guerillas and a lot of money and time spent there, but a government that will last a few years.
-Pull out now. Result - the Taliban returns.
Neither is a very good option. The option to just leave 10,000 troops there and hope they can cover a country the size of Texas isn't really going to work. It didn't work over the past two years; won't work in the next two.
juanesky 0
Quote
Oh, there was plenty of violence. We didn't start the violence there, but claims of how we have brought peace and democracy to Afghanistan are simply false. We have a long way to go.
Yes, agreed. We still have a long way to go, but definitely there has been positive changes. Not all actions have been the right ones.
Quote
For a great many people, the regime of the warlords has not come to an end. They are just as oppressed as they ever were.
We didn't invade Afghanistan to liberate the people or bring democracy there or any other feel-good politically correct reason. We went there to get Bin Laden; the Taliban was simply in the way. We still don't have him, and the quagmire is getting deeper. We have two choices, neither of which is good:
-Send 250,000 troops to occupy and pacify the country, and spend hundreds of billions modernizing the country and setting up a democratic government (with enough military to remain in power.) Result - a lot of American deaths from guerillas and a lot of money and time spent there, but a government that will last a few years.
-Pull out now. Result - the Taliban returns.
Neither is a very good option. The option to just leave 10,000 troops there and hope they can cover a country the size of Texas isn't really going to work. It didn't work over the past two years; won't work in the next two.
The only comment, I do no agree is the portion were you state that there is more oppression. Just by the accounts on women, the changes have been drastic and for the better.
It would have made a huge difference if there was a plan for the aftermaths.
Both alternatives are sad, but true.
Thanks for the insight, and for the tips on canopy control (saved my ass).
Blue ones.
"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
It must cost a fortune to reprint those dictionaries everyday.
What do you think the 87 billion is for?