What You Think You Know About Sept. 11 … but don't.

[SublimeBreeze 0]

There is good site if you are interested in finding more about 9/11 http://www.guerrillanews.com/




Peace

Sean
Sean

Sean
Sean In Thailand

[mikkey 0]

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I know that the underlying causes is really inconsequential in the grand scheme.

I know that over the past two years, those that have been most vocal in objecting to the course of action we have taken, have offered no alternatives.

Can you tell me how "you know" ? I do not know if I should laugh or cry when I read these "political" discussions in Talk Back. It disturbs me how many of the US based people who post are calling things "facts" when they are clearly either opinion or even worse "spin" from certain media or the current US administration.

I am a world citizen living “down under” but lived many places and grew up in Europe during the cold war. The communist movement was strong then and the propaganda intense. The right wing spin in the US at the moment reminds me too much of how communist propaganda was used to win the argument or create “perceptions”. The way people call facts that do not suit them for “left wing spin etc.” is the same tactics communists in Eastern Europe used (they called it “western propaganda”).

As a “world citizen” who via the Internet and his cable TV monitors the media in the US, it does concern me how the citizen of the worlds only super power are either misinformed or oblivious to the complexity of the world around them. It probably starts with the US education system, which does not teach children much if anything about the World outside the US and it continues with Americans in general not travelling outside the US except after they are retired. The result (IMO) is that Americans can be “tricked” into very simplistic perceptions and that is dangerous – both for the world and for democracy in the US as such. The current climate in the US reminds me too much of the hysteria of the 1950’s. I really wish Americans would start to understand that the world is more complex then “bad guys vs. good guys”. It is not black and white – it is all shades of grey.

The one thing that might change this is that events unfold in a way that clearly demonstrates to people that they have been fed bullshit. This will then probably make them sit up and start asking themselves if these perceptions that have been created really stand up to scrutiny. The event I am talking about is the current situation in Iraq. I think people are starting to compare the “facts” ($80+ Billion, lots of body bags, WMD) with what they have been told by the current administration over the last 12-month. As unfortunate the current aftermath in Iraq is, at least it might get Americans to be more critical about the spin they get fed by the current administration and their friends in parts of the media.

Before the flaming starts, let me just emphasize a couple of things:
- I am not a US “hater”. I am still eternally thankful how the US through NATO ensured that I grew up in freedom in Europe.
- I have spent a lot of time in the US and like the place.
- I am not a “leftie” – I support the current conservative government in Australia (and its involvement in Iraq – but for selfish cynical reasons – it keeps us strategically close to the US). To be conservative does not mean you support a government that lies, deceits and acts plain stupid. It also does not mean that you are against international co-operation. Co-operation between the (West) Europeans and America kept Europe free during the cold war. It was not always easy (the French have always been difficult to work with) – but it worked.
- I am happy Saddam’s regime is gone, but the way it was done, the timing, the lack of planning….. and worst of all telling people it had to do with 9/11. I hate when people are being tricked.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Gawain 0]

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Before the flaming starts, let me just emphasize a couple of things:
- I am not a US “hater”. I am still eternally thankful how the US through NATO ensured that I grew up in freedom in Europe.
- I have spent a lot of time in the US and like the place.
- I am not a “leftie” – I support the current conservative government in Australia (and its involvement in Iraq – but for selfish cynical reasons – it keeps us strategically close to the US). To be conservative does not mean you support a government that lies, deceits and acts plain stupid. It also does not mean that you are against international co-operation. Co-operation between the (West) Europeans and America kept Europe free during the cold war. It was not always easy (the French have always been difficult to work with) – but it worked.
- I am happy Saddam’s regime is gone, but the way it was done, the timing, the lack of planning….. and worst of all telling people it had to do with 9/11. I hate when people are being tricked.

No flames from me dude. I don't do that. I particularly like your blurb: "spent a lot of time in the US and like the place" ...for some reason that cracks me up, I guess because I like the place too.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SkydiverRick 0]

As a “world citizen” who via the Internet and his cable TV monitors the media in the US, it does concern me how the citizen of the worlds only super power are either misinformed or oblivious to the complexity of the world around them. It probably starts with the US education system, which does not teach children much if anything about the World outside the US and it continues with Americans in general not travelling outside the US except after they are retired.

[kmcguffee 0]

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I've traveled outside of the US (not retired). I was also taught world history and government in high school.

Me too! I also realize the world is not a simple place. Maybe Americans aren't as simple as he thinks.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Michele 1]

Wow, I've travelled, too. Lots of times. And was even an exchange student! I didn't teach, but still...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[wmw999 2,479]

What a coincidence. I've traveled too. And yet I'll bet there are things that all of us disagree on.

I do agree with a lot of what Mikkey said. The desired end, no matter how nobly perceived, does not justify "whatever means" it takes to get there.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mikkey 0]

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I've traveled outside of the US (not retired). I was also taught world history and government in high school.

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Me too! I also realize the world is not a simple place. Maybe Americans aren't as simple as he thinks.

Well, I was talking about "most" Americans and the lack of travel outside the US I think is true. Secondly, the thing I mentioned regarding education - it has been mentioned to me from many American friends, - not based on my own experience - I did not go to school in the US.

Also, I am a regular viewer of US news programs via cable. I see ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CNN (US)etc. news coverage and compare this to e.g. European news programs. There is a hugh difference in international coverage. US channels are only interested if the US is directly involved. Other countries broadcasters have a much more wider and deeper coverage of international issues.

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Maybe Americans aren't as simple as he thinks.

Well, I am optimistic enough not to believe the average American is as seen on "Jay walk"...

And can I ask you to re-read my post. I was not implying that Americans are stupid or "simple". I was saying they are being fed a "simplified" view of the world and that is a worry to me.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Michele 1]

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What a coincidence. I've traveled too. And yet I'll bet there are things that all of us disagree on.

I agree.

However, I'll bet we'd disagree with something not based on lack of travel, you know? I mean, we will have ideological differences - we are unique and have different perspectives on things - but that is not because we travelled, or because we didn't. It's because it's the way it is...


I have no college degree - but I know how to research things, I read a ton, and I look for information. Simply because I don't have higher education doesn't mean I am "less than", or a "sheeple" (gawd, I hate that word). Simply because I travelled does not automatically equate me with education and experience, either...

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree - but only if you've travelled.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mikkey 0]

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Simply because I travelled does not automatically equate me with education and experience, either...

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree - but only if you've travelled.

Looks like I have been misunderstood (or me being clumsy). Michele and others are right, travel or no travel does not mean you understand the world or have better informed opinions as such. If somebody travels to a caribbean island and parties 7 days in a row, does not mean they learned anything

I was more referring to that Americans (IMO) tend to be more "self centric" or whatever you want to call it. Many reasons for that including the size of the place. However, I think that traveling abroad and actually meeting other cultures, languages and religions tends to increase the understanding of other cultures and the appreciation of the complexity of the World we live in.

I live in Australia now, and it is very common for young people to go "back packing" through Asia, Europe or the US for 6 to 12 month. I find this a good thing and I find that people here are both interested and reasonable informed about what goes on outside their own back yard.

But this travel thing was not the main point I was making. I just believe these issues contribute to GWB's people getting away with some of the BS they are feeding the public. Just my opinion.

And by the way, I said I like the US - but it is not the best place in the world to live - that place is Australia

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Deuce 1]

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It's going to be a long 8 years.

I don't think so . . . the way I have it figured I'll only be complaining about GWB for about another 14 months or so.

Oooh. Neato! Who wins?

[quade 4]

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It's going to be a long 8 years.

I don't think so . . . the way I have it figured I'll only be complaining about GWB for about another 14 months or so.

Oooh. Neato! Who wins?

If the FutureCam is correct . . . we all do.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pds 0]

sources, proofs, did i really so misunderstand you? im not so sure.

while not groundbreaking, that article is the subject of this thread and the information presented has for the most part already been distributed through 'authoritive' news channels, has it not? it seems your accountability scale is skewed. thats just my opinion.

you have a nice night.

namaste, motherfucker.

[Deuce 1]

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Oooh. Neato! Who wins?

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If the FutureCam is correct . . . we all do.

Bleh! Cop out! I think we're all winners now!

C'mon! Dean? Gore? Clinton?

Use your powers for evil, Q! Or at least lend me some power so I can get a bet down while the odds are good!

[Ron 10]

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The Saudi government paid off al-Qaida in exchange for immunity from
terror attacks. Saudi princes knew in advance about the Sept. 11
attacks

I think the Saudi's do support terrorism.

Folks this is about religion, not politics.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Tonto 1]

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I know that 343 Firefighters died that day. ***
A lot more people died then just firefighters..

And a lot more innocents have died since.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[PhillyKev 0]

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His biggest point seems to be "I'm against the current US administration".

And what is wrong with that point?

Where have you been? For the past two years it is un-American, traitorous, and means you are harboring terrorists if you don't agree with the current US Administration.

At least according to the people who are first to scream about "liberal spin" and "left wing rhetoric".

[Michele 1]

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If somebody travels to a caribbean island and parties 7 days in a row, does not mean they learned anything

I am not going to get into a detailed itinerary for my travels, but I have never been to the Carribean, and have not partied 7 days in a row. I think that your equating that with my statement is incorrect, and nowhere have I given that impression.

My position is clear; simply because one has travelled does not mean one is more educated. Nor does it mean they're not educated if they haven't travelled.

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but it is not the best place in the world to live - that place is Australia

As to "countrycentric", you demonstrate in your final statement that you are, as well. So why is it acceptable (winky face or not) for you to have a strong opinion about the best place to live, and I cannot? Just a thought....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[mikkey 0]

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If somebody travels to a caribbean island and parties 7 days in a row, does not mean they learned anything

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I am not going to get into a detailed itinerary for my travels, but I have never been to the Carribean, and have not partied 7 days in a row. I think that your equating that with my statement is incorrect, and nowhere have I given that impression.

My position is clear; simply because one has travelled does not mean one is more educated. Nor does it mean they're not educated if they haven't travelled.

I was not referring to you personally(read the bloody post) - I was agreeing with you that travel as such did not mean more knowledge as such and described an example. Sheesh...

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but it is not the best place in the world to live - that place is Australia

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As to "countrycentric", you demonstrate in your final statement that you are, as well. So why is it acceptable (winky face or not) for you to have a strong opinion about the best place to live, and I cannot? Just a thought....

I was clearly being ironic that is what the bloody thing was for. Not cool to imply a different motive when it was clearly marked as irony.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[storm1977 0]

What kills me is that for some reason everyone still thinks Iraq is a blood bath.

Iraq is going well IMO. The death toll is low and we are slowly but surely eliminating gurrillas and Bathists.

It is the Media people... Can't you see that?

What would have happened if we had 24hr news coverage during Guadal Cannal or any other Major Battle? What if people were getting fed the death tally as we stormed the beaches in France? THis is Fucking insane.

It is war, it is not pretty... people die people get dismembered ... it sux, but it is going pretty well.

We are in Iraq for a reason... Some argue the wrong ones, but here's my take:

15 of 19 hijackers were from S.A. We have known for a LONG time S.A. isn't our real friend. We need their Oil, they need our Money. So, we and many other nations have turned our heads to the "behind the scene antics" of them. We had been to Iraq before, we knew their strenghths, we knew there weaknesses. We knew the rest of the world would be better without SH. We also needed to send a clear message to SA and other neighboring countries. We are here, in your back yard and we are not leaving soon. We are watching you!!!

So far, so good. No attacks here at home. Maybe none were planed, maybe some were broken up, who knows. But IMO, the best thing for us is to have a strong presence in the Middle East. Especially right on Saudi Arabia's doorstep.

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[vonSanta 0]

You're en eehvl Amreekhan Michele! That is why you're not allowed to have such an opinion.

Hope that clairifies things. If it wasn't enough, there's plenty more.

spokesperson spokesman>

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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15 of 19 hijackers were from S.A. We have known for a LONG time S.A. isn't our real friend. We need their Oil, they need our Money. So, we and many other nations have turned our heads to the "behind the scene antics" of them. We had been to Iraq before, we knew their strenghths, we knew there weaknesses. We knew the rest of the world would be better without SH. We also needed to send a clear message to SA and other neighboring countries. We are here, in your back yard and we are not leaving soon. We are watching you!!!

So, America invaded Iraq to teach SA a lesson. Well that makes it perfectly justifiable.

[skreamer 1]

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If the FutureCam is correct . . . we all do.

LMFAO, now that was quality.

Quade, I'm guessing here that you are a fan of John Cleese.

[mikkey 0]

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Iraq is going well IMO.

i wish you were right. Depends on what is the objective and measure of success.

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So far, so good. No attacks here at home.

Some people do not share your view. Have a read of this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2961044.stm

Especially this:

"Prof Wilkinson told the committee: "All of us breathed a great sigh of relief at the fall of the brutal Saddam regime.

"[But] most observers on counter-terrorism would accept there was a very significant down-side to the war in Iraq as far as counter-terrorism was concerned."

He added: "It takes time for al-Qaeda to organise major attacks of a specialist nature, often months are involved in terms of preparing the personnel, getting the weapons in place and so on.

"So we may not have seen the outcome of the plans laid in these recent months of war." "

I hope he is not right.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[PhillyKev 0]

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So, America invaded Iraq to teach SA a lesson. Well that makes it perfectly justifiable.

I can respect that as a legitimate explanation even if I don't agree that is justification.

My problem is that no one in the government will admit that is the real reason. If people feel that is a good reason for the Iraq War, well, that's democracy and I would respect that position if it was the reason for the majority support of the war. But, support for the war was garnered through deception and propaganda about non-existent threats. That's my problem with Bush.