How much are human lives worth?

[Gawain 0]

Reading through this, I'm reminded of the movie "Fight Club" : "On any given scale, the survival rate is 0."

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhillyKev 0]

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BTW: Smoking Marijuana has the same long term affects as tobacco, so if a long time hippie pot smoker of 25 years gets lung cancer...that "0" figure may not be accurate. Just a thought.

Lung cancer is caused by the radioactive aspect of cigarette tar. Marijuana tar is not radioactive. It's not the same.

[jumper03 0]

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Thank you for the info. I can't believe most of us made it out high school alive.

Judy

I think about that too and it is a miracle. To keep on the thread, there's so much screwed up with the world right now that we could talk ourselves blue and not even scratch the surface. I know I'm not happy with the way things are being run, but as grand pappy said - "Shit in one hand, want in the other and see which one fills up first" I live by the naive view that if I just live my life and help those around me and laugh like hell every chance I get, things will get better all over. Anyone else with me???

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[freeflybella 0]

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Ok, but if someone was shitfaced and drove into a wall, what would be the cause of that death?

Stupidity? Ego?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Gawain 0]

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BTW: Smoking Marijuana has the same long term affects as tobacco, so if a long time hippie pot smoker of 25 years gets lung cancer...that "0" figure may not be accurate. Just a thought.

Lung cancer is caused by the radioactive aspect of cigarette tar. Marijuana tar is not radioactive. It's not the same.

I think you're mixing causes. Carcinogens are not necessarily radioactive. Asbestos and Radon can also cause lung cancer. When someone lights up a joint, there are over 400 chemical compounds present. THC gets you high, and may be totally benign. The jury is still out on other affects from pot smoking (i.e. Head, neck, lung cancer, UCLA says yes, Johns Hopkins says maybe not).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TomAiello 26]

BTW, I mostly agree with you on the terrorism thingy. I'm against all forms of thought control, be they "left" or "right".

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I specifically mentioned educational prevention.

"...and now ve shall send you to ze re-education camp, to be educated..."

I dispute your implicit contention that "education" is materially different from prevention, except as a matter of degree. By your own admission, "education" prevents some percentage of an activity. Taking people's money and using it to "re-educate" them into different behavioral patterns isn't just immoral--it's borderline psychopathic.

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...you don't think the current propaganda machine is thought control?

Whoa. When did I say that?

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...the same case could be made for diabeties or HIV. I'm willing to bet that $300billion spent on the care or cure for either of those will save a lot more that 3000 lives.

I'd say that would be a far more useful expenditure than a large percentage of our anti-terrorism budget. Given a wider choice, though, I'd be in favor of leaving people's money in their pockets from the outset. But that should probably be a different thread...

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[freeflybella 0]

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I live by the naive view that if I just live my life and help those around me and laugh like hell every chance I get, things will get better all over. Anyone else with me???

If there was one philosophy/religion/ideal that I believe EVERYONE would benefit under, it's that one.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[txblondie 0]

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for the right amount of money, i might sell my life any offers?

things i won't do though if you buy me:

-wash the dishes
-do the laundry
-watch teh kids
-work for free
-cut the grass
-pay the bills
-not drink beer
-have sex with a man
-do anything you tell me too

if you still want to buy me, about $15,000 is a starting price

What are you good for then?

*****************************************
Blondes do have more fun!

[GARYC24 3]

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total number of deaths caused by marijuana since the beginning of time: 0

Even though I'm libertarian in my leanings (do what the hell you want to) that number is wrong.

I had two close friends in high school die less than a month apart as a direct result of the use of marijuana.

Not to mention all the deaths relating to the sell and transport of this little plant everyone speaks so shall I say "highly of" har har
It's more bad for ya than good!
I do speak from experience.
Gary Calhoun


Jump

[PhillyKev 0]

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Not to mention all the deaths relating to the sell and transport of this little plant everyone speaks so shall I say "highly of"

All of which would be elliminated by legalization. How many people die during an alcohol transaction now as compared to the 20s?

[Casch 0]

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Ok, but if someone was shitfaced and drove into a wall, what would be the cause of that death?

I would say alcohol. It Caused him/her to drive into a wall.

I wouldn't really say that alcohol caused the persons death. The consumption of said alcohol lead the person to drive into the wall. It's all semantics yes, but in this case it wasn't the alcohol that killed him, it was the order of events.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I dispute your implicit contention that "education" is materially different from prevention, except as a matter of degree. By your own admission, "education" prevents some percentage of an activity. Taking people's money and using it to "re-educate" them into different behavioral patterns isn't just immoral--it's borderline psychopathic.

So, parents shouldn't teach their children right from wrong?

I'm not talking about political propaganda like Reefer Madness. I'm talking about making people aware of facts, such as the potential dangers of smoking. Not scare tactics and propaganda. That's the exclusive right of Tom Ridge.

[TomAiello 26]

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So, parents shouldn't teach their children right from wrong?

Parents have a right (more an obligation, actually) to teach (and in some ways control) their minor children.

The government is not my parent. Nor is it yours.

I do not believe that government should be in the business of moral suasion. Whether you label such suasion "education" or "propaganda" is your choice, and is usually predicated on your own feelings about the particular issue that the "education" or "propaganda" relates to.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[PhillyKev 0]

Ok, how about this.

You get diagnosed with type II diabetes. Your doctor begins re-educating you regarding diet and its effect on your glucose levels. He explains to you the detrimental effect that your diet is having on your health.

Is that immoral?

Is it any more immoral to educate people regarding the ramifications of other health risks? By your generalization we shouldn't tell adults that unsafe sex with multiple partners could lead to AIDS.

[TomAiello 26]

The government is also not my doctor. Not my parents, not my doctor.

I pay the doctor to educate me (among other things).

The thing I object to is the government engaging in moral suasion. That's materially different from my parents doing so, or my doctor doing so, or you doing so.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jumper03 0]

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All of which would be elliminated by legalization.

I agree it should be legalized. Then we can tax it and empty the prisons of people who don't belong there. But if you get caught being stupid - i.e. driving under the influence say, the hammer comes down.

Maybe this is all better in a new thread?
I stop now.

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[PhillyKev 0]

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The government is also not my doctor. Not my parents, not my doctor.

I pay the doctor to educate me (among other things).

The thing I object to is the government engaging in moral suasion. That's materially different from my parents doing so, or my doctor doing so, or you doing so.

The govenment doesn't typically participate in the production of the educational materials. They provide funding for the private NPOs that do.

How old are you? Were you around when AIDS first hit the public light? Do you think everyone was being contacted by a doctor to advise them of the new risk they faced? There's a huge difference between public disemination of truthful information (what I'm calling education) and government propaganda.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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Total number of deaths caused by marijuana since the beginning of time: 0

BULLSHIT

***You might be surprised to learn that marijuana contains the same cancer-causing chemicals as tobacco, and at higher concentrations. Smoking five joints a week is the equivalent of smoking an entire pack of cigarettes every day which, even in the short term, leads to lung and respiratory problems-wheezing, frequent chest colds and-yick!-a nasty phlegmmy cough. Long-term use increases the chances of tissue damage and lung cancer, and also causes changes in the brain similar to those caused by long-term use of cocaine and heroin.***

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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Total number of deaths caused by marijuana since the beginning of time: 0

BULLSHIT

ALSO:

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Now, a report in Forensic Science International, by researchers Bachs & Mørland, of the National Institute of Forensic Toxicology in Oslo, Norway, report on six cases of "cardiovascular death in young adults" where THC and no other drugs, were reported in postmortem blood samples. Although only these six cases are detailed in the report, the authors reference several other cases of cardiovascular incidents related to cannabis use.

[PhillyKev 0]

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You might be surprised to learn that marijuana contains the same cancer-causing chemicals as tobacco, and at higher concentrations.

BULLSHIT

The radioactivity of tobacco tar is what causes cancer. Marijuana tar is not radioactive. Please explain to me how humans have smoked marijuana for thousands of years, yet lung cancer was virtually unheard of until the advent of cigarette smoking.

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Now, a report in Forensic Science International, by researchers Bachs & Mørland, of the National Institute of Forensic Toxicology in Oslo, Norway, report on six cases of "cardiovascular death in young adults" where THC and no other drugs, were reported in postmortem blood samples. Although only these six cases are detailed in the report, the authors reference several other cases of cardiovascular incidents related to cannabis use.

I don't see any reference there to proof of correlation. So six people who died of cardiovascular disease had smoked pot within a couple months of their death. I'll bet some of them had blue eyes, too. Did that casue their death?

[jfields 0]

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BULLSHIT

The radioactivity of tobacco tar is what causes cancer. Marijuana tar is not radioactive. Please explain to me how humans have smoked marijuana for thousands of years, yet lung cancer was virtually unheard of until the advent of cigarette smoking.

Kevin,

While I generally agree with your point in this thread, I call bullshit on your bullshit.

Saying lung cancer was unheard of until the advent of cigarette smoking is totally unproveable. It wasn't that long ago that doctors were using phrenology and occasionally drilling holes in people's heads to let the spirits out. Does the fact that bipolar disorder wasn't diagnosed and understood until recently mean that it never happened in human history? No. Ditto for a hundred other ailments. The logic of "we didn't see it, so it didn't exist" can mean that people didn't know what they were looking for as easily as that something wasn't there.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

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The radioactivity of tobacco tar is what causes cancer. Marijuana tar is not radioactive.

Great... 1 of the 4000 chemicals is not radioactive. What about the REST of the Carcinogens they both share?

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Please explain to me how humans have smoked marijuana for thousands of years, yet lung cancer was virtually unheard of until the advent of cigarette smoking.

Easy... The medical technology to diagnose lung cancer did not exist before cigarettes either.

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I don't see any reference there to proof of correlation. So six people who died of cardiovascular disease had smoked pot within a couple months of their death.

Ummm.. Six people died... only foreign substance was THC in their BLOOD

If you can't see the correlation, put on your glasses.
If the THC is in the blood, it means it was recently smoked.... within hours. I'm sure that you already know Marijuana is not even detectable in a urine sample after 20 something or fewer days. So where are you getting all these bogus numbers and facts from? Its detectable in blood samples MONTHS after use? BS!

[kiltboy 0]

I'm confused about the radioactive part of your argument and I'd love to see a source.

I'm curious as to what radioactive elements and their respective natural abundance that would be present in tobacco but not marijuana.

I would believe that the discrepency in cancer could be a result of a carcinogen present in the tobacco and not the marijuana.

David

[jfields 0]

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I'm confused about the radioactive part of your argument and I'd love to see a source.

I'm curious as to what radioactive elements...

I got it, I got it!

THAT is where they've been hiding the weapons of mass destruction. They hid the uranium in cigarettes!

[TomAiello 26]

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The govenment doesn't typically participate in the production of the educational materials. They provide funding for the private NPOs that do.

I don't pay for it. I provide funds for someone else to pay for it. This sounds like a purely semantic difference to me.

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How old are you?

31.

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Were you around when AIDS first hit the public light?

I'm not sure what your definition of that time frame is, but I was living in Northern California from 1989 on (before that in central California). It was a fairly large issue there.

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Do you think everyone was being contacted by a doctor to advise them of the new risk they faced?

No. Nor do I think that it's the responsibility of a doctor to do any such thing. It's your responsibility (personally) to see to your own health as far as you wish to do so--and no further. That includes contracting with health care professionals (such as doctors) as you see fit (or not) to safeguard your health.

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There's a huge difference between public disemination of truthful information (what I'm calling education) and government propaganda.

I bet all those folks on the opposite end of politics from you think what they're doing is "education" by their definition, too. Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot. Black?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com