Fibula, femur, or fatality (105 elliptical 1.3 PSF 127 jumps)

[mnskydiver688 0]

"The only true wisdom is in knowing that you know nothing." - That Greek philosophizer by the name of Socrates.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[MagicGuy 0]

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Chris, i've been wondering,

If you have no interest in swooping, why did you choose this particular canopy, regardless of size/skills?
It is specifically designed and sold as a swooping canopy.

I'm not condemning you, I'm just curious.

The truth is, I don't think Chris can give you an answer to this question. In fact, I don't think he can give you 3 good reasons why he needs to be jumping a 105.

1.) "I want a better flare"
-Bullshit, and a terrible reason.

That's the only reason I've seen so far. I'm sorry but if you can't get a good flare out of any modern day canopy, 7 or 9 cell, than you need more training and have no business of even day dreaming about being on a 105.

Chris, you say that you aren't practicing swooping and use this as a reason of why you are 'safer'. The lines on a 105 sq/ft canopy are SHORT. Short lines = steeper dives and more altitude lost in a turn. You DO NOT have to be pulling on your risers to hurt yourself. Coming straight in means jack when it comes to the possibility of getting hurt.

Chris, until you can give legitimate reasons for your choice in jumping this size, AND SHAPE, of canopy.. I'd like a picture of you so I know never to get on the same aircraft. After the multitude of great advice that people who have been in the sport for years and have more experience than most skydivers, and your continuing effort to neglect their advice and remain a stubborn skydiver putting not only yourself but other people at risk.. ahh, whatever.

Looking forward to the time where I can say "I told ya so!" Hopefully it's not a reply to your death report..

[Gato 0]

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Let's face it, this sport is about enjoying yourself and sometimes people with higher jump numbers hold their nose up at those who are downsizing faster than they did. Hell with a few months in the sport and less than 50 jumps there is no way I know anything about skydiving, canopies, rigs or rigging. Or could I?

Holding their noses up at you? Is that how you really see it?

Only some of our fellow noobs have held their noses up - the experienced jumpers are not coming from a position of "We're better than you." I think they're coming from a position of, "I give a shit about what happens to my fellow skydivers, and to my beloved sport."

Do you realize you are presenting an argument for why it's ok for ME to break safety rules? I don't mean to attack or criticize you, man - I don't know shit about this sport yet, but I do know what it means (and feels) to feel invincible.

A zen lesson: Those who have been up the mountain know what it looks like below, but those who have not have no idea what the surrounding land looks like. (Or something like that)

T.I.N.S.

[Ether 0]

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The truth is, I don't think Chris can give you an answer to this question. In fact, I don't think he can give you 3 good reasons why he needs to be jumping a 105.

Chris posted something a few months ago about his "unique" predicament of being extra-light and finding a suitable canopy. Maybe this is his way of feeling "special". I don't see his situation as being nearly as unique as he thinks, though. There are lots of lightweight jumpers. I've seen several threads, in the general and women's forums, about how to train as a light jumper. And all the downsizing information I've read says that light jumpers should downsize much more slowly than heavy jumpers.

I see a little of myself in Chris too. I was fortunate (yes, fortunate!) in that I had an ambulance ride from the dropzone at jump #15, and learned to be less cocky. I thought I was great under canopy; it turned out that I was barely adequate, and as soon as any variable shifted away from ideal, I got into trouble. I was extra lucky in that I had no permanent injuries. I wish everyone was so lucky.

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[skybytch 273]

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Hell with a few months in the sport and less than 50 jumps there is no way I know anything about skydiving, canopies, rigs or rigging. Or could I?

If you think that flying a 170 at 1.3 is the same as flying a 105 at 1.3, maybe you don't know as much as you think you do.

Or in different words, perhaps you don't yet know what you don't know.

[stratostar 5]

I give a shit about what happens to my fellow skydivers, and to my beloved sport & seen, cleaned up, help cart off broken mangled, mental veggies for life or the dead!


There fixed it for ya.

Most of us here have seen time and time again people who were "Special" canopy pilots who though it wouldn't happen to them....till it did, many of us won the frap pool.

Hey if you don't care to hear good advice from the old wise ones, that's your deal, go ahead and do as you please, just do us a favor and land on your own property so we don't have to feel a responsibility to supply you with CPR and stop the bleeding while waiting on the meat wagon to show up to haul your ass away, I would rather stand back video something good to sell to real TV or America's stupidest people then clean another mess.

Even expert's die in this sport!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[hackish 8]

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If you think that flying a 170 at 1.3 is the same as flying a 105 at 1.3, maybe you don't know as much as you think you do.

Or in different words, perhaps you don't yet know what you don't know.

No, you missed the point. There was a huge uproar when I tried a spectre 170. Lots of people said I was a dead man etc. Just like Chris in this thread.

I was spending some time reading about canopies and trying to understand some of the more critical technical points and lots of people told me that I should quit it because I would never understand rigging with only 40 jumps.

The point is I think Chris flies his canopy in a reasonable fashion and lands it well. So long as he's having fun doing it big whoop. People can make a lot of online assumptions but at the end of the day they are just ASSumptions as you've never met the individuals involved nor seen them fly.

-Michael

[frazeebd 0]

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People can make a lot of online assumptions but at the end of the day they are just ASSumptions as you've never met the individuals involved nor seen them fly

I bet some of these guys have seen a Cobalt 105 hurt or kill somebody though... or at least a comparable canopy. Probably somebody who said he was good enough to fly it, because he was a "natural"
Do you really think people get hurt flying canopies that they think they AREN'T good enough to fly? EVERYBODY that gets hurt said 'I'm good enough to do this!"

Some had done it 2 times, and everyone told them they shouldn't be doing it, and they didn't listen....

Some of them had done it 1000 times I'm sure, and most folks would have agreed that they were good enough.... but they got sloppy....or maybe they got cut off on final approach by a crazed babboon under a bath towel that didn't know how to regain control of his airborne Ferrari.

[DSE 5]

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If you think that flying a 170 at 1.3 is the same as flying a 105 at 1.3, maybe you don't know as much as you think you do.

Or in different words, perhaps you don't yet know what you don't know.

No, you missed the point. There was a huge uproar when I tried a spectre 170. Lots of people said I was a dead man etc. Just like Chris in this thread.

I was spending some time reading about canopies and trying to understand some of the more critical technical points and lots of people told me that I should quit it because I would never understand rigging with only 40 jumps.

The point is I think Chris flies his canopy in a reasonable fashion and lands it well. So long as he's having fun doing it big whoop. People can make a lot of online assumptions but at the end of the day they are just ASSumptions as you've never met the individuals involved nor seen them fly.

-Michael

1-No one called you a "dead man." In fact after reading the thread, the only person saying "dead man" is you.
2-No one told you you should "quit it" with regard to rigging, at least not in a public post.
3-You're a beginning a skydiver with 40 jumps saying it's acceptable for someone at Chris' level to be jumping a high performance canopy in contrast to professional, full-time skydivers with combined totals of at least 50,000 jumps saying otherwise.

You say "big whoop" because folks on DZ.com "haven't seen so-and-so fly (whether it's you, Chris, or whomever)? ...statistics disagree with you. At 40 jumps, you're still somewhat clueless. Like Skybytch says, "You don't know what you don't know." At 650 jumps, I'm still very much clueless.

Michael, how many broken people have you seen up close and personal in this sport?

Do you truly feel you have the experience, knowledge, or the right to dismiss those that have tens of thousands more times experience than you do because "they haven't seen you jump?"

[mnskydiver688 0]

The more you learn and the more you know, you realize how much left you have to learn and how little you know. Not knowing much about something doesn't make you stupid, just uniformed and knowing everything doesn't rule out the possibility of being stupid.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[headcase 0]

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This sport is naturally defensive. Letting someone do what they want in this sport as long as it doesn't endanger other people can't work in this sport. Exit separation is one. How do you know the guy behind you will give you enough time after exit? You could be deploying and look over and see this guy open up right next to you. Your only option is to be a defensive skydiver. Free-flying. You are on a jump with a few other guys and one goes out of your field of vision. How do you know he is not on a collision course with the back of your head? It isn't enough to make sure you are doing everything you can to survive, but also knowing until you are back in the packing tent you have to be on the defensive. Some say let him be. Let him make his own decisions and envitably his own mistakes. He might decide to say screw you all and jump the canopy he wants, but then it is your responsibility to defend yourself from possible injury or death caused by his actions. Don't jump with him, hang up there and let him land first, land far away from him, talk to the DZO about the safety risk he poses to others and ask for him to be grounded. Making sure the jumper is getting "proper" advice is the front line of being defensive, but advice is exactly that, advice. It isn't orders. Be a defensive skydiver.

Sorta like the "experienced" bowling ball shaped fellow skydiver whom was gently urged to allow 10 sec exit separation who went out after me and I was on my back and watched come bombing towards me in a "steep belly track." No problem I go to a sit watch him then turn 180 and track with a barrel roll prior to pitching to ensure I had both horizontal and vertical separation. Back at the packing area I strike up a conversation and lo and behold in spite of all maneuvering in close proximity to him HE NEVER SAW ME.

Or the 250ish fellow canopy pilot who came straight at me necessitating I use evasive manuevering to avoid a collision. He was messing with his slider and chest strap at 700 ft and going opposite traffic on a well considering DZ landing pattern. No prob except again this guy absolutely did not see until I yelled it as we passed.

And on and on.....

[DougH 270]

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No, you missed the point. There was a huge uproar when I tried a spectre 170. Lots of people said I was a dead man etc. Just like Chris in this thread.

No, I think your point is... "look at me I am special too!!!"

The fact that some people warned you about a downsize and you have done well despite the warnings hardly qualifies you to make judgements about Chris and his canopy flight.

I have been trying to keep my opinions out of this thread because I have only been jumping for just short of two years now. Even so I have already seen two people nearly die after slamming their ass into the ground under canopy.

These jumpers are warning Chris for a reason. They have been forced to see things that makes the two accidents I saw pale in comparison.

That Michael is real world experince. In short, shut up and jump, or shut up and learn.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[stratostar 5]

Why do we even waste the time with the never ending supply of argumentative fools who come on here and repeat, defend, say, the same line of bullshit as the fools before them, even when some of the fools from before chime in and admit to being one of those fools and how it cost them and they learned the hard way those who told them they were over their heads were right and they found out they were in deed fools, some didn't live long enough to find that out, those who did now are wiser and don't go to the dz acting as a fool like before, except for their funny looking limp.

Why give a shit, why not just let them be to do as they please and if they die, then there is one less dumbass in the world to deal with, I mean someone sold the canopy to them and some DZO someplace is letting them jump it, so who are we to try to stop them? Let them have their fun and let them deal with the out come good or bad......Anyone want in on the frap pool?

Oh and hackish, your sounding mighty big for your britches and talking a lot of shit about rigging as if you "know it all already". Some good advice was given to you before....Shut up & open your eyes & ears, and take good notes and maybe in 20 years you'll understand you don't know shit!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DSE 5]

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Why give a shit, why not just let them be to do as they please and if they die, then there is one less dumbass in the world to deal with, I mean someone sold the canopy to them and some DZO someplace is letting them jump it, so who are we to try to stop them? Let them have their fun and let them deal with the out come good or bad......Anyone want in on the frap pool?
!

I'll buy a coupla squares, Strat.
Why? Because we're skydivers, we look out for each other, and hopefully try to prevent this from happening. If it can't be prevented, then at least we own the right to shake our heads and say "That didn't need to happen....".

[kallend 2,026]

In the eyes of most whuffos, ALL skydivers, yourself included, are reckless fools. If you want to be safer, sit on the ground.

Where YOU draw the line of acceptable risk is not going to be the same as where others draw it.

Some actual data on risk would be handy. Does a person who waits 1,000 jumps before downsizing ACTUALLY have a lower risk of death than someone who does it after 200 jumps?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[denete 3]

What about someone who NEVER downsizes?

I guess that would be the control group for this armchair research.

I've been over this in my head a lot (thanks to these threads about downsizing and safety), and I don't really see a good reason FOR ME to entertain downsizing in the future. I like watching swoopers, but I don't have any interest in doing that myself. Perhaps after I witness my first extreme impact I wont like watching swoopers any more. I don't know. Probably the only transition that I see in my FAR OFF future would be to a canopy that has a better L/D...or the addition of a second reserve.
Like I told Andy...I want to be an old skydiver.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[kallend 2,026]

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What about someone who NEVER downsizes?

I dont see too many experienced skydivers jumping big Mantas or Navigator 300s.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[strop45 0]

I'm in agreement with Kallend. We all accept different levels of risk. Some jump with AAD, RSL, low wingloading mains and reserves. Some jump with no AAD and/or no RSL and/or small HP canopies and/or no reserves.

I also in agreement with you, at 13 skydives why would you be considering downsizing? OTOH, I wouldn't be too quick to cry 'NEVER'. I thought I would never be interested in 'swooping', but now find that I'm doing and enjoying 90 degree front riser approaches. I don't plan to downsize and maybe I never will, but I wouldn't say 'NEVER'.

Its interesting to try and balance learning and risk in skydiving. Progression requires that you try new things and attempt to do things you aren't 100% familiar and comfortable with. At the end of the day, I try and take baby steps and learn from the experienced skydivers around me. DZ.com is also a useful way to read about others experiences and see what generally works and what leads to problems.

Stay safe.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[denete 3]

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What about someone who NEVER downsizes?

I dont see too many experienced skydivers jumping big Mantas or Navigator 300s.

Oh, I thought you were asking for data? I figured it would be good to look at the same data on skydivers who don't downsize.

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Some actual data on risk would be handy.

But I guess if you don't see it, it must not happen. Best luck to you with that approach.

Personally, I don't see too many "experienced" skydivers dying under big Mantas or Navigator 300s. But then again, I've only been reading the reports for a few months now.

(and yes, I know that you can die under any size of canopy)

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[kallend 2,026]

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What about someone who NEVER downsizes?

I dont see too many experienced skydivers jumping big Mantas or Navigator 300s.

Oh, I thought you were asking for data? I figured it would be good to look at the same data on skydivers who don't downsize.

Find some, then. I suspect you will have a hard time.

However, if you want to look at comparative stats between those who downsize quickly and those who wait to downsize, what use is looking at those who don't do it at all? Your idea of what constitutes a control group is faulty.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[denete 3]

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Your idea of what constitutes a control group is faulty.

Damn! My idea is faulty!

(I thought you were looking at the canopy as the variable regardless of experience, but you're just looking at level of experience when the pilot downsizes...my bag.)

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[diablopilot 2]

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Why do we even waste the time with the never ending supply of argumentative fools

Because we're too dumb to stop?

Really because even though we're not reaching the parties involved, we hope that somewhere someone is learning from this.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[stratostar 5]

See, I knew at least one of you would get it. (my post)

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ladydyver 0]

As much as I'd like to say you're right...I just don't ever think it would happen.

You say being safe after 300 jumps would gain me somecredibility? I say 2000 on this ame canopy would gain me nothing on DZ.com.

I could burn in on jump 3562 and have never changed off of this 105, and good ol' DZ.com would still say it was due to my rapid downsizing and I didn't gain the skills early on to save my ass.

There is no possible way, EVER that I could EVER consider that I've won and was safe on the canopy. I can never "prove" to DZ.com that I am/will be safe. It is simply a lose-lose situation.

[sparkie 0]

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What about someone who NEVER downsizes?

I guess that would be the control group for this armchair research.

I've been over this in my head a lot (thanks to these threads about downsizing and safety), and I don't really see a good reason FOR ME to entertain downsizing in the future. I like watching swoopers, but I don't have any interest in doing that myself. Perhaps after I witness my first extreme impact I wont like watching swoopers any more. I don't know. Probably the only transition that I see in my FAR OFF future would be to a canopy that has a better L/D...or the addition of a second reserve.
Like I told Andy...I want to be an old skydiver.

Yeah, thats what I told myself too when I had 13 jumps Now I just follow the chart (mandatory here) downsizing to what I am allowed and feel comfortable under.

Downsizing isnt a must, but saying you will never downsize at jump 13, when the thrill of just jumping and surviving it is about 90% of the total experience, is a bit premature imo.

I had a blast going from student mains 280 or so to my 1st own canopy, a pilot 210 @ 1.1. It felt like a sportscar.

On another related note, not so much directed at yoy, but more in general..

@ 13 jumps I also told myself i'd never downsize...@ 30 jumps i had my 210 and now i have a 168 (pilot wl 1.3).. Why? well I now know more and have experienced more than back then @ 13 jumps and can make other descisions.

@ Chris ottowa (pay attention ;PP)
Would someone with say..1000 jumps be able to offer me some advice based on experiences I have yet to encounter? And would he in turn be able to get some useful advice from someone with over 2000 jumps and longer in the sport?

just my 2ct