Clear & Pull versus 5 Second Delay

[billvon 2,991]

>the ability to leave the airplane stable "Immediately" not after a
>couple seconds, not after 5 seconds, but the instant you leave.

Back when we taught SL, this was specifically discouraged for two reasons:

1) We had one or two students who would do poised exits and do a revised count along the lines of "ready, set, grab PC, throw PC, go, arch etc etc." We thought this had to do with an overemphasis on rapid deployment.

2) Slowing the count down (arch, reach, feel, pull or arch, look, reach, pull back in the ROL days) resulted in more successful exits and deployments.

So we ended up with an effective 2-3 second delay for our C+P. Worked well. Of course, this works better with PCA rather than direct bag, since PCA gives you time to do all that during a DRCP.

[wildfan75 1]

I think Rehmwa's use of the word immediately is being misunderstood (Bill--correct me if I am wrong please).

A true hnp, clear & pull, is a "Go, Arch, Look, Reach, Pull" or "Go, Arch, Reach, Feel, Pull", in one fluid, steady and stable pace. So, in that sense, you're are leaving stable and immediately deploying stable. It will take a second or two to go through the motions but it shouldn't be "Go, Arch, Look at the nice sunset, check your fingers for hang nails, Reach, Pull" nor is it a "Go, Arch, Front Role, Get Stable, Reach Pull". Sorry to pick on you Kelpdiver, but the whole point of the clear and pull requirement for the A card is to learn and prove that you can exit stable and THEN deploy stable immediately. If you can't do this, then it shouldn't be signed off the card.

And all seriousness aside, if someone is having trouble exiting stable and staying stable, I don't want to do RW with you. Waiting for you to get stable just cost us 2 points on the hill.

Editted to change Bill's name to Rehmwa as to not confuse Bill Rehm with Billvon.

[frazeebd 0]

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And all seriousness aside, if someone is having trouble exiting stable and staying stable, I don't want to do RW with you. Waiting for you to get stable just cost us 2 points on the hill

well its a good thing that you aren't going into competitions with people with less than 20 jumps then... you'd be screwed by those 2 points!!

Not all of us start out good enough for competition.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Sorry to pick on you Kelpdiver, but the whole point of the clear and pull requirement for the A card is to learn and prove that you can exit stable and THEN deploy stable immediately. If you can't do this, then it shouldn't be signed off the card.

How is that picking on me? I exit stable. I just don't have my right hand on my hip. Don't think I've done any RW exits that require that stance either.

And no, the point of the Clear and Pull is to demonstrate you can handle an emergency where it's necessary to get out of the plane. Get out any way possible and deploy.

[tbrown 26]

***Are you serious? That sounds like a comment from someone that has'nt worked with students. You can tell them to look up at the plane till you're blue in the face, but the fact is that just as many 1st FF students look down as up, probably more, and when they freak out and try to get stable before pulling, I'd like them to have a little cushion. The same thing applies to AFF students doing their first low jump. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know any instructors anywhere that would put students out at 2500 ft. Be careful what you say here, some may take you seriously.

[stratostar 5]

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You can tell them to look up at the plane till you're blue in the face, but the fact is that just as many 1st FF students look down as up,

Any student doing a C&P or 5 sec. is at a point that it should be clear they will be around awhile, what is wrong with teaching them about the body will follow the head,? You know an explanation of why and not just telling them, "look at the plane". (covered once in S/L FJC already)

If you take the time to teach them a proper exit, i.e., Head up and arch and explain the reason why head up w/arch, a large % will do as trained and not freak out and go head down or tumble, it's all in how you teach your student. Yes not all will do well, but most will if they are there to learn to skydive and you take the time to teach.

Then again these days with 2 to 4 hour FJC's it's a wonder some of you even have an I, let alone know how to use it.

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but I don't know any instructors anywhere that would put students out at 2500 ft.

2800 was the norm for years, back in the day.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[wrightskyguy 1]

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Then again these days with 2 to 4 hour FJC's it's a wonder some of you even have an I, let alone know how to use it.

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I'm going to assume you're ragging on instructors in general and not me personally, I've never taught a 4 hr FJC in my life. I consider myself a very competent and concientious instructor and I take as much time as is necessary as do most of the I's I know.

but I don't know any instructors anywhere that would put students out at 2500 ft.

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2800 was the norm for years, back in the day.

What day was that? 2800 aint 2500, although it's still below a students recommended opening altitude,

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[stratostar 5]

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I'm going to assume you're ragging on instructors in general and not me personally

You would be correct.

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What day was that?

1970's by the 1980's S/L FJ was 3200

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[rehmwa 2]

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>the ability to leave the airplane stable "Immediately" not after a
>couple seconds, not after 5 seconds, but the instant you leave.

Back when we taught SL, this was specifically discouraged for two reasons: you discourage them from being stable?????

1) We had one or two students who would do poised exits and do a revised count along the lines of "ready, set, grab PC, throw PC, go, arch etc etc." We thought this had to do with an overemphasis on rapid deployment. this is caused by emphasizing a time limit like 1 second, or 5 seconds - don't do that

2) Slowing the count down (arch, reach, feel, pull or arch, look, reach, pull back in the ROL days) resulted in more successful exits and deployments. so where in here are you making them count a delay out? - please show me

So we ended up with an effective 2-3 second delay so what? are you TELLING the student to count to 3 or are you telling them to do the steps calmly like I've said about 5 times in this thread for our C+P. Worked well. Of course, this works better with PCA rather than direct bag, since PCA gives you time to do all that during a DRCP.

Again, you don't even try to read what's written. (I said "immediately stable" is the goal. (one can leave immediately stable and then freefall for 70 seconds, or pull right then) Somehow you are purposely reading that as "pull unstable off the step". You regularly do this just to artificially 'correct' people - it really gets old. )

What I see in your note is that you agree with everything I've said.

Look at my posts, my emphasis is a steady CALM process that doesn't include 'adding' just another step to count out a delay.

So tell me how you would "discourage" that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Maybe this is just the instructor then, but we were taught that if you bail out on you're reserve you have a handle on the reserve ripcord... if you bail out on the main (higher altitude) then you bail out with you're hand on the PC. I guess this isn't taught that way everywhere then?

I bail with my hand on the PC. Habit from CrW, etc.

My point is that if you think you MUST have your hand on the PC, then you are too low for your main and should go to your reserve handle.

Nothing more or less than that.

Teach what you want, I'm talking about exit altitude in this one point, not technique.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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2-page A license card:

5. Jump and deploy while stable within five seconds
after exit from 3,500 feet AGL.

4-page A license card (ISP) - requirements for category F:

• Clear and pull (5,500') _______ _____
• Clear and pull (3,500') _______ _____

I teach an IAD to AFF progression.

2 Simple IADs from 3000-3500
3 Practice pulls from 3000-3500 (arch thousand two thousand reach thousand pull thousand)
1 Clear and pull from 4000-4500 (arch thousand two thousand reach thousand pull thousand results in a 2-3 second delay by most students...the particularly good ones actually get around 4 seconds. The particularly bad ones are either 0.5 seconds or 7-8 and I like the cushion of some extra altitude on this stressful jump, more for my peace of mind than their's. )
4 AFFs, starting with pulls at 5500 and working down to 4500.

Note they haven't met that USPA requirement yet because of the altitude cushion I gave them on their first clear and pull. Soo....before they get their A, they have to exit at 3500 and pull within 5 seconds. Their instructions are to exit stable, facing the relative wind, using the same count they did at 4500. It's surprising how many develop the fear of 3500 during the AFF jumps...it was fine before but the higher pulls have rendered it scary again.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,991]

>What I see in your note is that you agree with everything I've said.

Yet you seem to disagree!

>So tell me how you would "discourage" that.

We originally had an emphasis on a rapid exit and deployment (i.e. no delay, intentional or otherwise.) This did not work well. We then went to a more deliberate approach that involved a longer count i.e. ready - set - go or look up-go, then arch, look, reach, feel, throw (or later arch-reach-feel-throw.) Took an additional 2-3 seconds but worked out in the end.

So we discouraged rapid deployment after exit, and started being OK with a short delay.

Maybe I am getting hung up on "delay." If you are defining delay as "anything that involves counting just to waste some time" then we agree - we're not really adding any "real delay" just some extra time for the guy to go through a slightly more lengthy count.

[rehmwa 2]

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>If you are defining delay as "anything that involves counting just to waste some time" then we agree

"IF"?

here's what I wrote (in several different ways) "my emphasis is a steady CALM process that doesn't include 'adding' just another step to count out a delay."

so we agree. solved.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants