What is the best handle for cutaway?

[JohnSherman 1]

Recently there was a fatality where there was no cutaway and there should have been.
This probably was not the first time.
The Cutaway “Pud” was of matching color to the jump suit.
It was apparently not removed from its Velcro retainer.
The video shows the jumper looking to the chest area 2 times. After the second time he pulled the reserve handle.
Did he decide after the second look that he was too low, therefore electing to pull the reserve? He wasn’t! Or did he have a problem pulling the Pud? We will never know.
This all brings to question a category I call “Handle Talk”.
What is the best handle design for activating the cutaway or for that matter the reserve or main?. As the main is not generally for emergency use and the pulling of which is well practiced we will leave it out of the discussion.
Generally in the sport we have a choice of two types of handles. A soft “Pud” or pillow type or a metal loop handle such as generally used on the reserve. There are those who think the reserve handle should be like a Pud. They believe it reduces the chance of accidental pull.
Some manufacturers have recently been supplying, to some of their customers, on request, Red Power Coated Stainless Steel Reserve Handle drilled to accept the cutaway cables. They simply add a mating piece of Velcro to the already existing pud Velcro, on the harness, creating a pocket for the new metal handle.
So we have two schools of thought. Soft pud types and ridge metal handles, which is best?.
In its pocket, the grip edge of the metal handle has a tendency to stick out away from the body a small amount because of the curve of the body at that point. The Pud doesn’t do that, it contours. The metal handles can be “thumb hooked” as well as being grab able like the pud. OK, personal preference. We were all taught from the beginning to protect all handles. This hasn’t changed. The handles today are easier to protect but even the Pud must be protected.
So, I bring this question to you! I bring it to stimulate discussion and awareness.
I not only want your vote on which handle is best, but your comment on the advisability of the choice you rejected.

[sundevil777 102]

There should be a third choice, the soft loop handle.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[NealFitz 0]

i voted pud because it is less of a snag hazard which is slightly contradicts my opinion considering the metal reserve handle also has an equal chance of getting snagged. in the UK its frowned upon to have the cutaway pad the same colour as your jumpsuit until you are C licence and above. i would suggest having a brightly cloured handle rather than the traditional red. my first rig had an almost fluroescent yellow coloured pad with duct tape around the middle- no missing that one!

Dudeist Skydiver #170
You do not need a parachute to skydive, you only need one to skydive again

[virgin-burner 1]

i like the ones they have on the advance container..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[VTmotoMike08 0]

IMO, the best is the strong tandem cutaway pud where it is a soft handle but it also has a flap that you can hook your thumb it. I would have that for both cutaway and reserve on my sport rig too if Mirage offered it. I base that on my experience of 4 cutaways, two sport and two strong tandem.

[mjosparky 4]

I always converted my rigs over to 2 metal handles. I used the 2 handed method of cutaway and having 2 handles “worked great.
I have yet to hear a valid reason for a “pud” in the first place. Puds tend to roll under the MLW and are hard to grip.

Sparky

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Skydiving/Wingsuit2.jpg

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Handles1.jpg

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dragon2 2]

soft loop.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[tbrown 26]

My new Infinity rig has a soft pud cutaway handle. It has an extra plastic stiffener inside it to help prevent it from turning under the main lift web. Which is not a sure thing, but is better. I still use a metal D ring for the reserve handle, because I like being able to hook my thumb into it, even if/when I can't see the thing. I don't trust a soft pud for my reserve handle.

In principle I like the idea of two hard D rings for both emergency handles. But I've never had a problem finding, or PEELING a cutaway handle on four cutaways with a 3 ring system (3 were in the old days). Bottom line as I see it is that the 3 Ring has been around for so long, and proven itself so reliable, that it really doesn't need to be changed. There will always be an occasional failure of some system, because nothing works 100%. Adding a second hard ring ripcord DOES double the snag hazard, especially on exits and for floaters who climb out.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[livnbored 0]

When I ordered my rig years ago, a few people who had more jumps than I chastised me for not getting a soft reserve handle. I didn't order the low-profile metal handle blindly. I wanted a handle I knew I could get my hand on and pull. The soft handle seemed more difficult to yank out imo.
I disagreed with people who said the metal handle was too easy of a snag point.
I knew of incidents where people's cutaway handles were pulled in freefall by someone taking a grip. And I know the same for reserve handles. Protecting our handles is a key point on any skydive.
I have a soft cutaway handle, but part of me has considered getting the soft loop, but I think in the event of a cutaway, the bulkiness of the pud handle would be easier to find.
'Course, I never had a cutaway - just trying to be prepared should that jump come.

[Decodiver 0]

I have a Javelin with puds for cutaway and reserve and have had no problem finding either of them on the 2 cutaways I have had.

I also muscle-motor train under canopy to find both handles after I have loosened my chest strap by climbing the MLW from my hip rings if I ever need to cutaway once under a fully functioning wing.

The Javelin puds have a metal barrel within which makes them more solid, I have a black and red jumpsuit so my handles are orange.

Coops.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "I have a Javelin with puds for cutaway and reserve and have had no problem finding either of them on the 2 cutaways I have had.

I also muscle-motor train under canopy to find both handles after I have loosened my chest strap by climbing the MLW from my hip rings if I ever need to cutaway once under a fully functioning wing.

The Javelin puds have a metal barrel within which makes them more solid, I have a black and red jumpsuit so my handles are orange. "
.....................................

Thats great, glad it works for you.

I'm thinking its not for everyone though.
Slimming down emergency handles, taking away thumb purchase for what reason? opposed thumbs are an evolutionary advantage we should use especially in an emergency.

I'm wondering how many people have been killed by the slippery little pretty puddy things.

I'm going with Sparky on this one and convert my rig to a decent cutaway handle too ....thanks.

[mchamp 1]

It all comes down to what handle YOU are most comfortable with i would say.

With that being said I have soft puds for BOTH cutaway and reserve.

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[jtiflyer 0]

whichever one works is the best one.

Having said that all 3 of mine were on soft handles

[mjosparky 4]

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With that being said I have soft puds for BOTH cutaway and reserve.

One of the reasons Bill made the first 3 ring rigs with puds was to give them a different tactical feel then the reserve handle. Now everyone is going with puds for both. So much for that idea.

It’s true that what your feel comfortable with is best. The problem is most of the puds and soft handles were ordered to feel cool not because they work better.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[virgin-burner 1]

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With that being said I have soft puds for BOTH cutaway and reserve.

One of the reasons Bill made the first 3 ring rigs with puds was to give them a different tactical feel then the reserve handle. Now everyone is going with puds for both. So much for that idea.

It’s true that what your feel comfortable with is best. The problem is most of the puds and soft handles were ordered to feel cool not because they work better.

Sparky

i ended up getting a pud for cutaway - because it's standard; and a low-profile D-handle because of the snag-hazard..

but yea, what to get if you've never had a cutaway!?
not really because it *is* - or *feels* cool..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[peter.draper 0]

I have 2 low profile metal handles. A red one for the cutaway and a black one for the reserve. I'm with Sparky, I like to "get a grip" when I need to, and having had a pud flip under the main lift webbing once I lost confidence in them...........

[Squeak 17]

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There should be a third choice, the soft loop handle.

I sent an email to UPT asking for a soft handle. A reply came back asking why, i said i really prefer a positive grip THROUGH the handle. the next reply was "good answer".
The likelyhood of a hard pull is going to be higher on a cutaway, I want the best leverage i can get should i need it.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[piisfish 140]

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There should be a third choice, the soft loop handle.

I sent an email to UPT asking for a soft handle. A reply came back asking why, i said i really prefer a positive grip THROUGH the handle. the next reply was "good answer".
The likelyhood of a hard pull is going to be higher on a cutaway, I want the best leverage i can get should i need it.

The rigid textile loop (like Basik) would be my choice if I had to get a loop handle.
There were (don't know if they still exist) soft textile loop handles, which were mega-flat and would get very easily swallowed into wingsuits.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Joellercoaster 6]

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One of the reasons Bill made the first 3 ring rigs with puds was to give them a different tactical feel then the reserve handle.

I have always liked that.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[skydiverek 63]

From Bill Booth, the inventor of 3-ring cutaway system and the cutaway handle:

"The hardest part about designing the 3-ring release system was coming up with a suitable handle. All previous releases had a safety of some sort to prevent accidental release. But I wanted a device that could release both risers with one easy motion. So I needed a handle that could be pulled only by the human hand, and never be snagged by anything else. Remember, the most important function of any release system is NOT to release. It has to hold firm 1,000 times between each cutaway. If I hadn't designed the soft handle, the 3 ring probably would have been a failed design. Remember, when a reserve ripcord handle is knocked out of the pocket, pressure from the reserve pilot chute spring on the loop and pin usually prevents an accidental opening. But a 3-ring cable has no such pressure on it until after opening, so a 3-ring handle knocked out during exit, would probably go completely bye-bye in freefall, resulting in a real surprise at pull time. The soft 3-ring handle has been pretty successful for over 20 years now. As a matter of fact, while I have heard of people accidently pulling it, I have yet to hear of it being knocked out of its pocket, or being accidentally snagged, on exit or during relative work."

and

"Again, if pillows are so bad, why are they used as cutaway handles on 99% of the rigs out there?"
Although I designed the "soft pillow" handle for the 3-ring release in the first place, I won't get into the discussion (too much) about whether it makes a good reserve handle for freeflyers. Most decisions in skydiving are tradeoffs, and this is certainly one of them. However, I do think a pillow makes a better cutaway handle than a reserve handle, simply because, where the pillow is in a cutaway situation, is much different from where it is in a reserve pull situation. Think about it. In almost all situations where a cutaway is needed, you're hanging from your main risers, and your main lift web, where your cutaway pillow sits, is pulled up and away from your body, so your cutaway pillow is literally right in front of your nose. Now think of where your reserve handle is in a total malfunction. It's down below your armpit, tucked tightly against your body, maybe even UNDER the webbing, and more than a little bit hard to see, especially if you're wearing a full face helmet. Now think how much a reserve pillow handle feels like your harness, or a fold in your jumpsuit, especially if you're wearing gloves. Now picture yourself low, out of time, and in desperate need of a reserve handle that you can't see or feel. Aren't you glad you bought that Cypres?"

and

"In almost every case, when you need to use your cutaway soft handle, you are hanging under a main canopy, and your main lift web (to which your "pud" is attached) is pulled upward and away from your body. Even if your breakaway handle had been tucked under in freefall, it would be no more, and it is literally right in front of your nose anyway. In contrast, when you need to find your reserve handle, there is no load on your harness. So it will be much lower. and against your body. Therefore, your reserve handle will always be "harder" to find than your breakaway handle. If it is tucked under, locating it might take more time than mother nature has allowed you on that particular jump. Knowing this, before I let Relative Workshop offer "soft" handles for the reserve, I redesigned our breakaway pup with a solid metal core to make "tuck-unders" less likely. Most other manufacturers have now done the same thing."

[obelixtim 150]

He's a clever boy that Bill Booth fella......

A good illustration as to why modifications should not be done without some serious brainstorming of all the possible complications that could occur, followed by the question.

"And what else??

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[labrys 0]

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There should be a third choice, the soft loop handle.

Agreed.

Owned by Remi #?

[JohnSherman 1]

Ok: That was fun 75/25, disappointing. But we are talking about it. The poll isn’t growing anymore so I will add my 2 cents. Thanks to everyone for their comments.
I would like to rebut some and make my own. Remember the purpose of talking is learning!

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Remember, the most important function of any release system is NOT to release. It has to hold firm 1,000 times between each cutaway. If I hadn't designed the soft handle, the 3 ring probably would have been a failed design. Remember, when a reserve ripcord handle is knocked out of the pocket, pressure from the reserve pilot chute spring on the loop and pin usually prevents an accidental opening. But a 3-ring cable has no such pressure on it until after opening, so a 3-ring handle knocked out during exit, would probably go completely bye-bye in freefall,

Ok, so I'll try it. I took a rig with a low profile metal handle, Teflon coated cable and a non-compressible housing. I pulled the metal handle out of the pocket, it just hung there. I jumped up and down, it just hung there. I put a pull scale on it and had to sustain a 5 pound pull in addition to the weight of the handle to move the cable in the housing. If I stopped pulling the cable stopped moving. The weight of the handle alone would not pull the release.

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I redesigned our breakaway pup with a solid metal core to make "tuck-unders" less likely.

The purpose of the metal core is to make the reserve ripcord extendable to allow for loads on the housing which might stretch it as the cable and ball float in a slot in the tube. It doesn't prevent "Tuck Unders" or make them less likely. If it did we would be putting metal tubes in the cutaway side. Housing exit location controls the propensity to tuck under. With a pud I must keep the housing exits outside the pocket, exposing them to snag. With a metal handle the concern is gone and the housing end can be built into the pocket.

The only way to prevent "Tuck Unders" is with a metal handle (ridged across the width). The metal handle offers two methods of griping, the pud one. We have been protecting open ring handles for years. As to the cloth loop with a cable inside it. Way too snag gable.

The trend toward the pud reserve handle is mostly with the newer jumpers 'cause "it is cool" it disturbs me and I won't build one. I do make the base for other gear makers but I don't put puds on them.

I guess it is down to your personal thinking.
Is it more important to be able to pull the handle and save your life than to have a partially exposed snag gable ring which must be protected? Or, to have handles which are difficult to grip and pull but require less protection so you can “Skydive “with abandon?

[skydiverek 63]

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I took a rig with a low profile metal handle, Teflon coated cable and a non-compressible housing. I pulled the metal handle out of the pocket, it just hung there. I jumped up and down, it just hung there. I put a pull scale on it and had to sustain a 5 pound pull in addition to the weight of the handle to move the cable in the housing. If I stopped pulling the cable stopped moving. The weight of the handle alone would not pull the release.

Bill Booth was talking about the effect of 120 to 200 mph wind on the cutaway handle, out of its pocket. Your experiment did not include that.

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The purpose of the metal core is to make the reserve ripcord extendable to allow for loads on the housing which might stretch it as the cable and ball float in a slot in the tube. It doesn't prevent "Tuck Unders" or make them less likely.

Probably a tucked-under handle (with a tube inside) would be very uncomfortable to the wearer, thus making him aware of the 'problem'.

And what about this handle?:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1571027;search_string=thumb;#1571027

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=187982#187982

[JohnSherman 1]

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Bill Booth was talking about the effect of 120 to 200 mph wind on the cutaway handle, out of its pocket. Your experiment did not include that.

If you think that a dynamic pressure of 33 ponunds per square foot (Q @ 120MPH) is going to equate to more than the forces I measuresd on the ground over the miniminual surface area (3.5 sq. inches, .017 Sq. Ft.)) of a metal handle, which you will need to pull the handle, is going to happen you had better recalculate. Don't forget to calculate in the Drag coefficient of the .3125" diameter "High Drag