150 vs 170 First Rig

[EOCS 0]

hey,

Im looking into getting a new rig soon, one of the main things i didnt like about the student canopys is that the harness never fit as nice as i wanted and well it wasent always me who packed it. found a decent deal on a new wings container with Sabre2 main. I have jumped a Sabre1 190 about 15 (75 jumps total) times and have had no problems landing it or controlling it in the air. i weigh about 75 kilo/ 150 pounds. As the containers are made in different sizes (175-150 OR 150-135) i would like to get the 150 so i can keep the same container with a future downsize. Of course i will take all info here as opinions only and my instructors will have final say :)

Nutshell: 170 vs 150
weight: 65 kilo/165 pounds
Jumps: 75 (15 on a 190)

Thanks for the info

[popsjumper 2]

Among other things, why do you want to downsize?
What's driving you to want a smaller canopy?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Joellercoaster 6]

If 165 is your bodyweight and not your exit weight with gear, then: seriously consider a 190.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[EOCS 0]

The main deciding factor for the 170 vs 150 is the possibility to downsize in the future (container size). I would say the main reason for downsizing to begin with is that i feel very comfortable with the 230 F-111 older canopy we have at the club (although it cant flare for anything) and the 190 Sabre which feels safer and more controllable then the 230. Since ive been jumping the 190 recently and feel very good with it and plan to buy my own soon i want it to be something i can jump for and still use the container for my next canopy. So a 170-150 container seems to fit the bill. but then this got me thinking that a 150 is not that much smaller and will be the next size down container. So its more the choice of the container size then the canopy over from what im told there is not so big a difference between a 170 and 150.

[davelepka 4]

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I have jumped a Sabre1 190 about 15 (75 jumps total) times

i would like to get the 150

What does one thing have to do with the other? Putting 15 jumps on a 190 does not prepare you for doing anything but jumping a 190, let alone a canopy 25% smaller than that.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is the size of the reserve. The majority of rigs are built with similarly sized main and reserve containers, so you're left jumping a similarly sized reserve to your main meaning it's going to be small, and F-111, and a 7-cell, and you're going to be jumping it in the wake of some sort of malfunction.

I don't see the logic in your thinking. You want to rush into two downsizes in order to be ready for further downsizing in the future. What about the next ten, twenty, or thirty jumps you're going to make? Have you considered those jumps in your plans? You seem overly concerned about jumps you may be making 100 or 200 jumps from now, but giving little thought to your present situation.

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found a decent deal on a new wings container with Sabre2 main

The first step in being a good deal is that it's the right product for you. I know of a Velo 75 in a Javelin with a PD reserve that's been sitting in a closet for the last 5 years, and I'm pretty sure the owner would let it go for a song (he's not jumping anymore). It would be a GREAT deal, should I PM you his contact info?

The basic idea in skydiving is to buy what you can safely jump/wear today. Don't ever buy anything based on skills you might have in the future or weight you might lose. Neither one of those goals might happen, and then you're stuck with gear that's not right for you.

The truth about rigs is that they can generally hold three sizes of canopies, the one they're built for, one up and one down. So if you look for a rig that was built to comfortably hold a 170, you'll be all set. You can put a 190 in there to start with, and when you're ready to downsize, it will hold a 170, and further down the line, a 150.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you need to downsize, or buy gear with the intentions of downsizing. If you just want to go faster, then just admit it. If you're just trying to be sensible, then be sensible and buy a canpoy and rig appropriate to your current skills, and worry about your future skills when they actually materialize.

[popsjumper 2]

What you said in post#4 does not address WHY you want to downsize.

Let me put it another way.
Why do you feel you have to have smaller and smaller canopies?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

You are on a 190 looking to go to a 135 - that's a big jump worth more than a few years of experience. A 135 for a 170 pound guy isn't out of line for a jumper with a 1000 jumps or more and good experience.

That new rig with a 170 that will pack to a 150 sounds like a good rig for the next few years if you consider a 170 for a few hundred jumps and then the same for a 150.

How about going to that next size on your second rig?

If you do it right, you have plenty of time to worry about it later. For that matter, by the time you are ready for a 135, the technology might change even further and pack volumes will get REALLY small and you might want something else.

Better to plan for your jumps in the next 2-3 years, not your jumps for 5 years out or more.

(and the comment on the reserve size is a REALLY good consideration - my reserve is bigger than my main)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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What you said in post#4 does not address WHY you want to downsize.

Let me put it another way.
Why do you feel you have to have smaller and smaller canopies?

Really need to answer this question - as well as how long does he expect to take to get there and how he plans to progress to those square footages too.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ufk22 33]

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Among other things, why do you want to downsize?
What's driving you to want a smaller canopy?

Silly question....
'Cause that's what all the cool kids do......

It wasn't that long ago that a 190 Sabre loaded at 1/1 was considered high-performance canopy loading.
Now this is a student canopy?????????
Now we have sub-100 jump newbs wanting 150's for their first canopy so they have the option to downsize further faster.
It isn't them.
It's what they see us do (or at least some of us. You know, the really cool jumpers).

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Arvoitus 1]

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Let me put it another way.
Why do you feel you have to have smaller and smaller canopies?

Because if you're flying a big ass square canopy you can't swoop, and if you aren't swooping you ain't cool and if you're not cool you're not getting laid.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[EOCS 0]

ok i guess i wasent very clear with the above post :S
Downsizing for the sake of having a smaller canopy is not what i want. its more that i want my own gear, especially after my lineover from 2 weeks ago i want to be sure its something i packed cause i know that im careful with it. And to this end i started looking at rigs.

With the 190 i get far more accurate landings then from the 280s as they tend to move ALOT with the wind, even last minute gusts will carry you an extra 35+ meters. With stronger winds it can be possible to not make it all the way back to the packing area and have a good walk after the jump. easier packing with the 190 then the 280s So i guess it comes down to.

i think a 170 will be able to move against the wind better and have more accurate landings. I do not intend to be swooping in the near future.

170 will be alot easier to pack

the smaller container is alot more comfortable in our small cramped airplane. the 190 showed me that.

I feel comfortable with the 190 but i know i will want something a little faster in the near future. So its mostly about getting something i know will keep me happy for a few years and i think a 170 then 150 will do this.

Just as a side note i have gone over all this with my instructor before making this post and we agree that i should get a 170 and that i will have to make another 20 jumps or so on the 190 before downsizing. if i were to buy a 150 it would be at least 100 more jumps until i would be allowed to jump it. im very safety conscious and do not at all intend to jump something until im ready.

EDIT* @rehmwa

i would say that from next year i plan to get around 200 jumps a year.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Downsizing for the sake of having a smaller canopy is not what i want. its more that i want my own gear,

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easier packing

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170 will be alot easier to pack

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the smaller container is alot more comfortable in our small cramped airplane.

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So its mostly about getting something i know will keep me happy for a few years

***i would say that from next year i plan to get around 200 jumps a year.

[yoink 321]

There are so many strawman arguments in your post that it's difficult to keep track of them all!

You want to be sure that you're jumping gear that you packed yourself? Pack the 230 yourself then. Shouldn't be a driving reason to switch gear.

All canopies react to changing wind conditions - yup, bigger ones with a lighter wingloading may limit your ability to jump when the winds are honking, but who wants to come straight down anyway? Learning to fly a really good pattern despite the wind conditions will make you a better pilot. The fact that you may have a longer walk back to the packing shed shouldn't be a driving reason to switch gear.

A 170 will not necessarily be easier to pack than a 280. In fact, a new canopy will be a LOT more difficult to pack than a regularly jumped canopy. Get taught how to deal with the larger fabric of a 230 and practice... That'll make everything easier to pack. Not only that, but smaller canopies are much less forgiving of packing errors. Again, this shouldn't be a driving reason to downsize.

Smaller containers are more comfortable? ANY container that is built for you will be more comfortable, regardless of size. This is a daft reasonto consider changing your gear.


Lets be honest. You've gotten to a stage in your skydiving career when you've decided you want your own gear - that's great. You don't need a reason for that! However, like every hotshit 70 jump wonder out there (and I include myself when I was there!) you're certain that big canopoies are boring, uncool and will just cot you money for no reason. Hence the 'well, I was looking at a 170, then figured a 150 wasn't that much smaller' reasoning. I've learnt over time that the reverse is true - you'll learn faster on a canopy suited to your skill level, larger canopies hold their value MUCH better than intermediate sized ones, and there's fun to be had on ANY size.

It's worth remembering that most experienced jumpers talk about getting to know a canopy / size during HUNDREDS of jumps. Not 15 or 20. Not really even 100 or 200... Only when you've really got a canopy dialled in - ie you can land it anywhere, in pretty much any condition using every input available, should you really start thinking 'yeah, I might start thinking about something a little smaller now' - and then you need to start the learning all over again.

Stay safe.

[normiss 855]

Keep talking to that instructor that is personally familiar with your canopy progression.
Don't pay much mind to the interwebs experts.

I took this exact progression when I was starting jumping.
I went with a 150, still jumping a 150 9 years later.
I changed my canopy choice in the middle of my rig order.


Flame on.

[ufk22 33]

Yup, 74 jumps, a 150 loaded at 1.3 will be perfect.......

And we wonder why newbs say dumb stuff.
At least their excuse is ignorance rather than stupidity.

"I did it and lived, so it must be a smart choice..."

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[dragon2 2]

For your reserve canopy, you want a wingload of maximum 1:1. Meaning if you weigh 165 lbl that's 190 lbs with gear, so you want a 190 sqft reserve canopy AT THE SMALLEST. If you meant you're very very lightweight and the 165 lbs is including your rig, then it's a 170 sqft reserve AT THE SMALLEST.

So, which of those containers will accomodate that 190 sqft reserve?

Until jump 100 or more, you shouldn't be loading a main canopy more than 1:1 either, so a 190 would be a good choice to keep jumping. If you're very good with the 190 you've been jumping now, meaning you can land it comfortably downwind/crosswind/uphill/downhill and all that into someone's backyard, a 170 main canopy wouldn't be out of the question a bit sooner than 100 jumps. Anything smaller than a 170 main and a 190 reserve for your first 200 jumps or so would be bordering on seriously stupid though.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[normiss 855]

Like I said - flame on!

I'm not gonna interwebs quarterback here, but my first thought is that his instructors know a lot more about this jumper's skills and progression.
If his rig takes as long to receive as mine did, it's quite possible to have a few hundred jumps by then.

Quick! Tell me what I should be jumping.

[EOCS 0]

Thanks for the all the info.

Just to remind as there seems to be alot of strong opinions here that im not intending to get a 150 but was toying with the idea and was curious what others had thought. Should i have decided to buy a 150 or 135 or even 103 i would not have jumped it until i was ready be that at 100 jumps or 1000 jumps :)

I think a 170 will suit me fine now and for quite a while as do my instructors.

Thanks dragon2 you make a good point, will bring this up.

[sailorjohnny 0]

Solution: Get a container sized for 150, and stuff a 170 pd pulse or aerodyne zpx pilot in it. They will pack like 150s, and if you want to downsize to a 150 further down the road, you'll only need to swap out the canopy.

Depending on the container manufacturer, you may even be able to fit a 170 zpx/pulse in a container sized for 135, but be careful with reserve sizing if going that route (hint: optimum reserve).

[Ronaldo 0]

My suggestion: do a canopy piloting course to see what you can really do with a lightly loaded modern canopy. Do as many jumps and levels as possible (don’t do just a one day course and think you have learned everything). Discuss with the coach during your progression and get some serious advice based on real experience.

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[nigel99 569]

Don't be mislead by the gear available which might be driving some of your decision making process. I am on the lookout for affordable gear and it is very tempting to jump into the 150 bracket as there is more available.

Keep an eye open and spread the word and stuff will appear. There are possibly more 190's available than you think it is just they are so popular they don't last long on the market.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[virgin-burner 1]

with your poor attitude, i'd say a 280 navigator!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[obelixtim 150]

I'm sure there are many people with badly busted up bodies who now wished like hell they were a little more conservative with their canopy choices.

You want a canopy that will give you the best chance to live to fight another day, rather than something that will punish you severely for an error on landing.

Have a read of the "incidents" thread.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[mjosparky 4]

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A 135 for a 170 pound guy isn't out of line for a jumper with a 1000 jumps or more and good experience.

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If 165 is your bodyweight and not your exit weight with gear,

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Yup, 74 jumps, a 150 loaded at 1.3 will be perfect

Where in the hell are you guys getting these numbers. In his first post he states, “i weigh about 75 kilo/ 150 pounds”.

150 lb plus 25 for gear is 175 lb out the door. On a 170 sq. ft. canopy the loading would be 1.02:1. On a 150 sq. ft. canopy it would be 1.16:1.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Here is a way to get away from this war of words and make a sane decision.  Use this skill checklist to help determine if your skills are ready for a smaller canopy;

[url]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47[/URL]

Highly suggest that you read all 22 pages of the following before you decide.  Many of these drills can be helpful to you. 

[url]http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf[/URL]

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!